The grace test - Rajk and ToOne

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I did not assume that rehabilitation is not part of the salvation process.

Perhaps you are a bit more reasonable than KM in leaving the judgment up to God.

But I bet you believe that some people are sent to eternal hell, correct?

But I bet you believe that some people are sent to eternal hell, correct?

I believe that in the last judgment those whose names were not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire which is called "the second death".

If there was ever a desire to be genuinely convinced by correct interpretation of otherwise, this is that teaching. I gave some teachers their best shot, almost wanting to be persuaded.

So far, I see no way out eternal damnation upon those whose names are not written in the book of life in the last judgment.

Originally posted by jaywill

But I bet you believe that some people are sent to eternal hell, correct?

I believe that in the last judgment those whose names were not found written in the Lamb's book of life will be thrown into [b] the lake of fire which is called "the second death".

If there was ever a desire to be genuinely convinced by correct int ...[text shortened]... al damnation upon those whose names are not written in the book of life in the last judgment.[/b]

If the wages of sin is death.
And the soul that sinneth it shall die.
And Christ said only God can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Then in that second death is that lake of fire in which those souls and/or bodies will die.

If they remain suffering for all eternity as you believe, then the souls did not die.

Christ said man can destroy the body but not the soul
God can destroy both, and God will destroy both.

Eternal death or eternal damnation does not mean eternal suffering.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If the wages of sin is death.
And the soul that sinneth it shall die.
And Christ said only God can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Then in that second death is that lake of fire in which those souls and/or bodies will die.

If they remain suffering for all eternity as you believe, then the souls did not die.

Christ said man can destroy the body ...[text shortened]... nd God will destroy both.

Eternal death or eternal damnation does not mean eternal suffering.

You and I do not have good discussions.
But I am thoroughly aware of your view.

It reminds me of the prodigal son parable also think of the hymn amazing grace. Grace known will compel a man to good works




Manny

Originally posted by knightmeister
God's grace and love has always been offensive to our sensibilities and sense of justice. This is the way it should be.

Try this imaginary thought experiment -

Imagine you are in church and Hitler walks in. He's terminally ill and in his last days (I said it was imaginary!). He walks up to the front throws himself upon the Lord in prayer b ...[text shortened]... erstand "works" but there is one great redeeming work of God that you have not understood.

I say "B". Be glad that he is repentant and then hang him.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If the wages of sin is death.
And the soul that sinneth it shall die.
And Christ said only God can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Then in that second death is that lake of fire in which those souls and/or bodies will die.

If they remain suffering for all eternity as you believe, then the souls did not die.

Christ said man can destroy the body ...[text shortened]... nd God will destroy both.

Eternal death or eternal damnation does not mean eternal suffering.

Jesus also said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me,
though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall
never die. Do you believe this?”

(John 11:25-26 NKJV)

So you see it is the soul that sins and does not repent and believe in Christ by
putting his faith and trust in Christ that shall surely die.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Jesus also said, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me,
though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall
never die. Do you believe this?”

(John 11:25-26 NKJV)

So you see it is the soul that sins and does not repent and believe in Christ by
putting his faith and trust in Christ that shall surely die.

.. Shall surely die?

or shall surely suffer for all eternity?

Which is it?

Christians believe that they will suffer for eternity when the Bible clearly says over and over they will DIE !

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Edit: The following is meant for all and not just as a response to the OP.

What might the scenario given in the OP look like if it were consistent with the teachings of Jesus when He walked the Earth, rather than being consistent with the teachings of Paul and others as in the OP?

Jesus saw Himself as being "one with God". Jesus spoke often and at l ...[text shortened]... u see it as a postive thing that Hitler is living in the "Kingdom of God"?

In this scenario, toward the very end of his life Hitler has seen the error of his ways, the error of his views, etc. Not only that, Hitler has had a complete change of heart and mind. He has truly "repented". He has become "one with God". He has become "righteous". He has become the embodiment of justice, compassion, love, truth, etc.

--------------------ToOne---------------

But such a miracle of the human heart could only be achieved by the Holy Spirit. It is the Holy Spirit that brings a man to repentance. In true Christianity becoming "one with God" is not a metaphor , it actually means that the very Spirit of God himself lives in that person so we are united with God in His very nature. We become "one with God" as Jesus is "one with God". Jesus clearly says alongside the concept of oneness that he will be IN us as the Father is IN him. So oneness is also intimately tied up with the idea of the Father being in Jesus and Jesus being in us. This obviously is entirely consistent with Jesus words on the Holy Spirit and Paul's later teachings about the Holy Spirit living in the believer. It's there in black and white below in Jesus' own words. He says clearly he will live in us.

You cannot talk about Jesus and "Oneness with God" without discussing the Holy Spirit. It's a no brainer.

"I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.” JOHN 17

With the scenerio consistent with the teachings of Paul and others, the deficiencies are quite apparent - some of which have been directly pointed out by other posters.

With the scenario consistent with the teachings of Jesus when He walked the Earth, there are no such deficiencies.

A comparison of the two makes it all the more striking.

For example, take the concept of being "one with God". It seems that many who follow the teaching of Paul and others believe that they can be "one with God" even though they continue to sin. And yet, a common definition of "sin" is being "apart from God". Evidently they believe that one can be simultaneously "one with God" and "apart from God".

With a view consistent with the teachings of Jesus, one can only be "one with God" if one no longer sins. There is no contradiction of being simultaneously "one with God" and "apart from God".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
With the scenerio consistent with the teachings of Paul and others, the deficiencies are quite apparent - some of which have been directly pointed out by other posters.

With the scenario consistent with the teachings of Jesus when He walked the Earth, there are no such deficiencies.

A comparison of the two makes it all the more striking.

For exam ...[text shortened]... no contradiction of being simultaneously "one with God" and "apart from God".

You are quite correct. If one claims to be one with God and yet continues to be in bondage to sin then there is something not right. However , as I have pointed out to rajk , just because a particular doctrine is open to abuse by men does not mean it is false.

The fact that some men escape jail due to contaminated evidence and technicalities does not mean that the rules and regulations that govern our legal systems are wrong. Similarly , just because men might misuse or misunderstand the doctrine of grace does not per se make it a false doctrine.It's simple logic.

You may think Paul wrong on many things but at least he is explaining what Jesus taught about the Holy Spirit.

The fact is that Jesus did not just talk about how we might live but he also talked about how we might be set free and how he would live in us. He talked about how he would be in us and he in the Father. He talked explicitly about the Holy Spirit and how we could do "nothing apart from him". All this points to something else than just mere "teaching" or instruction. It points to God doing something supernatural and that means the activity of the Holy Spirit. It is the love of God and His Spirit in us that changes us.

ToOne - when Jesus talks about him living IN us. What do you think he is on about - have you any explanations / extrapolations for John 17?

Originally posted by knightmeister
God's grace and love has always been offensive to our sensibilities and sense of justice. This is the way it should be.

Try this imaginary thought experiment -

Imagine you are in church and Hitler walks in. He's terminally ill and in his last days (I said it was imaginary!). He walks up to the front throws himself upon the Lord in prayer b ...[text shortened]... erstand "works" but there is one great redeeming work of God that you have not understood.

My understanding of Christian doctrine is that God's forgiveness does not supervene the necessity of sincere penitence, reparation of some kind and personal transformation. The faith vs works controversy doesn't come into it.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory makes a lot of sense here. But, yes, no Christian could confidently deny that Hitler was saved, for 'He who was forgiven the most loves the most.'

Originally posted by Conrau K
My understanding of Christian doctrine is that God's forgiveness does not supervene the necessity of sincere penitence, reparation of some kind and personal transformation. The faith vs works controversy doesn't come into it.

The Catholic doctrine of purgatory makes a lot of sense here. But, yes, no Christian could confidently deny that Hitler was saved, for 'He who was forgiven the most loves the most.'

I think the faith v works controversy is relevant here because Hitler would presumably have either no or very little works to offer God. Infact , he would have the opposite , evil works. So all he would be able to do is throw himself upon God's mercy and compassion , humbly offer Him his heart and gratefully receive the free gift of salvation through faith in Jesus.

Of course the interesting thing here is that if we are honest we imagine Hitler would need to do this , and we wouldn't quite have to go as far as this because so subtle is out pride that we tend to think that God will look at us differently from Hitler and see that we don't "really" need Jesus to die for us in quite the same way. This misses the fact that in comparison to the Holy fire of God we are all Hitlers and all in need of the cleansing blood of the Lamb.

In my imaginary church, as Hitler was pouring his heart out , I can guarantee there would be those at the back of the church thinking "thank God I don't have to humiliate myself like that and be so desperately in need of God's grace" . It would be those people who would be most in danger , not Hitler.

This is what is behind the thinking of those who denigrate grace and over-elevate works. They like a system where God shows good favour to those who have done this or that and then they can subtly look down on those who have "fallen short". It leads to judgmentalism and such an insidious form of pride that the person themselves is oblivious to it themselves.I confess , I've done it myself and I had to look at myself in the mirror and get real with God. Once I realized that we "have all fallen short of God" and that there is "none righteous" and that all "my" goodness was what God had given me as a gift of grace - then it became impossible to see my works as something that could "earn" me eternal life.

The simple fact is that it won't matter how many good works you have if you don't accept that Jesus died personally in your place to put you right with God. To suggest that the death of the Son of God is not a sufficient sacrifice is to insult Jesus and what he did.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I think the faith v works controversy is relevant here because Hitler would presumably have either no or very little works to offer God. Infact , he would have the opposite , evil works. So all he would be able to do is throw himself upon God's mercy and compassion , humbly offer Him his heart and gratefully receive the free gift of salvation through f ...[text shortened]... n of God is not a sufficient sacrifice is to insult Jesus and what he did.

I think the faith v works controversy is relevant here because Hitler would presumably have either no or very little works to offer God.

Those churches that supposedly do believe in salvation through works would not describe salvation in this way. The Catholic Church for example does not teach that each individual must offer God works in order to be saved. Baptism and contrition for sin, not being under mortal sin, are the minimum requirements of salvation. I would be interested if anyone on this forum does have such a soteriology. It would certainly be idiosyncratic and hard to reconcile with biblical teaching on salvific nature of penitence.