The Hagia Sophia

@philokalia said
In this specific case, very famous or notorious; as we are talking about the guy right now, quite a while after he left, I think it qualifies as being rather... legendary.

You mean like that "legend" Hitler?

@philokalia said
a Cathedral and rightful seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch,

"rightful seat"?
By what "right"?

Buildings get re-purposed all the time.
Roman temples were later used as Christian Churches.
Catholic Churches were taken over by Protestants.

In the UK many, many churches are deconsecrated and turned into trendy flats.

Do any of the buildings I've cited above have a "right" to return to their original function?

@wolfgang59 said
"rightful seat"?
By what "right"?

Buildings get re-purposed all the time.
Roman temples were later used as Christian Churches.
Catholic Churches were taken over by Protestants.

In the UK many, many churches are deconsecrated and turned into trendy flats.

Do any of the buildings I've cited above have a "right" to return to their original function?

The Orthodox have the right to the building as they had built it for the explicit purpose of being the chief Cathedral of Constantinople and the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. At the time of its completion, it was the largest Cathedral in the world, and wold remain as such for nearly a thousand years.

This is truly a monumental building, not average in any way at all.

You talk about it like they've just repurposed the old Ramada hotel to be remodeled and used as office space on the bottom with apartments above.

This isn't just some building -- this is the Hagia Sophia.

@wolfgang59 said
You mean like that "legend" Hitler?

So trolling well makes you Hitler?

@philokalia said
What, exactly, are you talking about?

I am talking exactly about the things I have been saying clearly. You asking me to say it again is merely evasion.

@philokalia said
I stated it back on page 3 or 4 that the museum status is less desirable than it being a Cathedral and rightful seat of the Ecumenical Patriarch, but it is far superior than it being used for Islamic (or any other) religious services.

There was absolutely zero possibility that it was going to be used by Christians as a building for their religion again after 500 years of being used by Muslims as a building for their religion.

Here you are pretending that you are suddenly "personally insulted" by the news it is not going to be a museum anymore.

The idea that the government of Turkey might have turned it into a Christian building was never on the cards.

You wishing it that it was a cathedral or somehow retrospectively rooting for the long-dead people who used to worship in that cathedral over five centuries ago is one thing, but this clutching-your-pearls "personal insult" schtick sounds bogus and/or emotionally weak.

@philokalia said
The Orthodox have the right to the building as they had built it for the explicit purpose of being the chief Cathedral of Constantinople and the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

It belongs to the Turkish government. The Orthodox Church lost ownership of it over half a millennia ago. The seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is elsewhere now and has been for centuries. The building is the property of the Turkish government and all "rights" to it spring from that.

@philokalia said
In this specific case, very famous or notorious; as we are talking about the guy right now, quite a while after he left, I think it qualifies as being rather... legendary.

I see us as talking about you, actually, and what you see as a "great poster" and what constitute good forum standards according to you. What you say about a creepy troll like him in the past, defines you now.

It's relevant because you spend a lot of time browbeating other posters about "forum standards", including periods when - from my perspective - you had nothing to offer here and instead just stalked me from thread to thread chuntering on pompously about "forum standards".

@fmf said
It belongs to the Turkish government. The Orthodox Church lost ownership of it over half a millennia ago. The seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is elsewhere now and has been for centuries. The building is the property of the Turkish government and all "rights" to it spring from that.

it was highly unlikely that, in the year 2020, under Erdogan, it would have been reconsecrated as a Church. Nobody expected that.

Nobody expected the People's Republic of China to begin guaranteeing the democratic rights of Hong Kong in 2019, either. But this did not stop people from reacting angrily when the situation deteriorated further.

---

People have a right to their holy sites even when they have been deprived of them long ago.

@fmf said
I am talking exactly about the things I have been saying clearly. You asking me to say it again is merely evasion.

Pure evasion.

Allow me to put you to the question once again:

But a debate involving people who don't really want to address the moral dimensions of slavery, often because of their religious zealotry, IS occurring in America.

I would like to know where this debate IS OCCURRING.

I have not seen this debate on the news or among people on Facebook; I haven't heard peopel talking about the theological positions for Christians re: slavery in the last couple years except on this website and perhaps a couple other times that it has come up on other internet forums, but none of these discussions were happening exclusively between Americans...

What, exactly, are you talking about?

There is no famous instance of this debate.

You have become unexpectedly narrow on the topic because you painted yourself into a corner when you declared that BLM is irrelevant to this.

@fmf said
I see us as talking about you, actually, and what you see as a "great poster" and what constitute good forum standards according to you. What you say about a creepy troll like him in the past, defines you now.

It's relevant because you spend a lot of time browbeating other posters about "forum standards", including periods when - from my perspective - you had nothing to offer ...[text shortened]... e and instead just stalked me from thread to thread chuntering on pompously about "forum standards".

Oh, I understand.

We're all very, very sensitive & prickly when it comes to being criticized even though we go around needling everyone who disagrees with us, aren't we?

I promise to stop talking about forum standards because I now understand that you are completely beyond the pale, and there should be no expectation of you ever posting in any way not resembling a sealion.

@philokalia said
We're all very, very sensitive & prickly when it comes to being criticized even though we go around needling everyone who disagrees with us, aren't we?

No, I disagree. I just think you are very hypocritical about "forum standards" and have no credibility on the matter.

@philokalia said
The Orthodox have the right to the building as they had built it for the explicit purpose of being the chief Cathedral of Constantinople and the seat of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. At the time of its completion, it was the largest Cathedral in the world, and wold remain as such for nearly a thousand years.

This is truly a monumental building, not average in any way at all.

I'm not denying it is a superb piece of architecture and of historical significance.
I agree it is not average in any way.

What I am questioning is the Orthodox Church's "right" over the
building, which you have in no way justified.

And I think the religious significance of it is minimal.
For instance does it attract pilgrims?
Was it the site of a manifestation of Christ?
Are there any documented miracles?
Does it house the remains of any saint?

@philokalia said
I would like to know where this debate IS OCCURRING.

It is occurring between Christians who look at slavery through differing moral prisms. If you are a Christian who has never debated slavery with other Christians or if you are unaware that Christians have been and are discussing slavery, then don't worry about it. It means it isn't occurring for you.

@philokalia said
it was highly unlikely that, in the year 2020, under Erdogan, it would have been reconsecrated as a Church. Nobody expected that.

So how on Earth can you claim to be suddenly "personally insulted" by the fact that it wasn't converted back to being a Christian building?