Originally posted by Nemesio This isn't a scored game: you did one evil act and two good acts, therefore, you win! That the
Church did a lot of good in the past and today doesn't make its evils permissible, just like it doesn't
make it ok for me to commit an evil act after I give $100 bucks to charity.
That's right. That's the elephant that people always put in the room when they say, "...but look how much good the Church has done!"
If that were truly any justification or mitigation of evil, then one could "earn" or "purchase" the right to kill people by accummulating a sufficient balance of good to exchange for it. If I wanted to rape somebody, I could earn that right by buying her enough flowers.
And that's the real reason why ivanhoe's article is crap.
Originally posted by TheSkipper Ok, LH this is an interesting topic and I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt even though my head is screaming to just write you off as an incorrigible Catholic apologist. I think to have an honest discussion about this we need to establish where one another is coming from. I’m of the opinion that the Catholic Church has over the centuries comm ...[text shortened]... e Church of hundreds of years ago is not going to help.
I guess that is my bit…
TheSkipper
The Skipper: "The problem, of course, is that people like you and other Catholics seem to want the Church to have a perfect record from the word go .... "
I didn't read that in any of Luciferhammer's or any of my posts. On the contrary .... if you read them again you will undoubtedly find your claim is completely missing the point.
Originally posted by Nemesio [b]Originally posted by TheSkipper [b]I’m of the opinion that the Catholic Church has over the centuries committed horrible acts in an effort to pad not only their pockets but their power. I think that they have in the past and even recently sought to hide many of the things they have done and/or condoned from modern society to keep from losing their r disputable evil it has committed, repent of it and strive
to avoid it in the future.
Nemesio
I have to agree with you. I really wish the Church would simply say "oops, we goofed" and get on with things. You are right all the good deeds in the world will not make killing or torturing even one human being ok. My last post was not intended to suggest so. I was hoping to convince LH that attempting to defend the actions of the Church is ultimately a hollow pursuit made even more so by the fact that the church cannot claim innonce of this things but can only claim "it is not as bad as we think".
I'm not even hoping for an apology for the Church's misdeeds although it would be nice. I just wish it would stop spending so much energy attempting to defend itself. Can you imagine what God must think of such a pursuit? Is God really going to endorse the Church's desire to make sure everybody understand that some of their actions were "not quite as evil as everyone seems to think". It is shocking, really.
Originally posted by ivanhoe The Skipper: "The problem, of course, is that people like you and other Catholics seem to want the Church to have a perfect record from the word go .... "
I didn't read that in any of Luciferhammer's or any of my posts. On the contrary .... if you read them again you will undoubtedly find your claim is completely missing the point.
Oh geez, really?
Ok, Ivan...you got me. I'm guilty of the "fallacy of exaggeration". Enjoy your moral victory.
Originally posted by ivanhoe The Skipper: "The problem, of course, is that people like you and other Catholics seem to want the Church to have a perfect record from the word go .... "
I didn't read that in any of Luciferhammer's or any of my posts. On the contrary .... if you read them again you will undoubtedly find your claim is completely missing the point.
Well then what is the point? Because it sounds to me like what you are saying is "Yes I raped her, but I used a condom!" As if that is supposed to make some sort of difference.
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles That's right. That's the elephant that people always put in the room when they say, "...but look how much good the Church has done!"
If that were truly any justification or mitigation of evil, then one could "earn" or "purchase" the right to kill people by accummulating a sufficient balance of good to exchange for it. If I wanted to r ...[text shortened]... ght by buying her enough flowers.
And that's the real reason why ivanhoe's article is crap.
I guess you haven't researched the facts yet. Nobody is trying to justify anything wrong the Church has to account for.
Your "rape" example is again a red herring and a false analogy thrown at our faces in order not having to adress the historical FACTS presented here.
You keep persisting in building your discours, if it can be called that way, on fallacies.
Please keep the elefants and the herrings out of the discussion.
Originally posted by TheSkipper Can you imagine what God must think of such a pursuit? Is God really going to endorse the Church's desire to make sure everybody understand that some of their actions were "not quite as evil as everyone seems to think". It is shocking, really. TheSkipper
Hence the hypocrisy of religion.
There are two places where I can find incredible amounts of hypocrisy without breaking a sweat:
Originally posted by TheSkipper Well then what is the point? Because it sounds to me like what you are saying is "Yes I raped her, but I used a condom!" As if that is supposed to make some sort of difference.
TheSkipper
You are pursuing a false analogy. a fallacy. You could also call it Strawmanreasoning ..... or trying to Change the Subject.
Originally posted by ivanhoe Your "rape" example is again a red herring and a false analogy thrown at our faces in order not having to adress the historical FACTS presented here.
What do you suppose is the motive behind this thread?
Merely to present FACTS? What is the Spirituality in that? If that's the case, then this thread should be moved to General, or maybe we need a History Lessons fourm.
But if it wasn't merely to present FACTS, what could it be?
Originally posted by ivanhoe You are pursuing a false analogy. a fallacy. You could also call it Strawmanreasoning ..... or trying to Change the Subject.
Please, study and address the historical facts.
No, it is not a false analogy. Please explain to me what LH was doing in the first post of this thread if not suggesting that the Catholic Church is guilty just not AS guilty as some seem to think?
If that post was anything other than an attempt to mitigate damages on behalf of the Church I don't know what would be.
Originally posted by DoctorScribbles What do you suppose is the motive behind this thread?
Merely to present FACTS? What is the Spirituality in that? If that's the case, then this thread should be moved to General, or maybe we need a History Lessons fourm.
But if it wasn't merely to present FACTS, what could it be?
Dr.S: "What do you suppose is the motive behind this thread?"
To place the events and developments in a cultural and historic perspective in order to gain a better and more nuanced, more balanced view. This is science. Searching for truth, and not taking the image presented to us by the Hollywood industry and other propaganda sources as the historic truth, is our and your duty as rational human beings.
If one is interested in winning the perpetual propaganda war against the Roman-Catholic Church, one is, of course, not interested in such an approach.
But if it wasn't merely to present FACTS, what could it be?
Please, read the above.
What is the Spirituality in that?
Maybe the thread should be removed to "Debates" forum. But I'm not trying to change the subject here. Maybe you can open a new thread dealing with this problem.
The Inquisition(s)
07 Oct '05 17:214 edits
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