Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not convinced that when dealing with an OOO God, the lightening is any less evil even by todays usage ie it is a result of a moral choice of some entity - ultimately God. The [b]only way out is a reduction on the O's or a 'greater good' argument that leads to the 'best of all possible worlds' claim.

Notice that earlier in the thread Kelly star ...[text shortened]... sins'. He said:
God cursed the planet due to our sins, it was done with cause. [/b]

Agreed.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not convinced that when dealing with an OOO God, the lightening is any less evil even by todays usage ie it is a result of a moral choice of some entity - ultimately God. The [b]only way out is a reduction on the O's or a 'greater good' argument that leads to the 'best of all possible worlds' claim.

Notice that earlier in the thread Kelly star sins'. He said:
God cursed the planet due to our sins, it was done with cause. [/b]

The only way out is a reduction on the O's or a 'greater good' argument that leads to the 'best of all possible worlds' claim.

I can't think of a plausible 'greater good' argument where an OOO God could not have created a system in the first place wherein evil was never a possibility. Did you have something specific in mind?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not convinced that when dealing with an OOO God, the lightening is any less evil even by todays usage ie it is a result of a moral choice of some entity - ultimately God. The [b]only way out is a reduction on the O's or a 'greater good' argument that leads to the 'best of all possible worlds' claim.

Notice that earlier in the thread Kelly star ...[text shortened]... sins'. He said:
God cursed the planet due to our sins, it was done with cause. [/b]

It is the matter of the perfect system, once cursed it isn't perfect, the imperfections
are just a natural out come of a system spinning out of spec. I don't call a car
breaking down evil, even if it causes the a life to damaged or ended, it is just
the normal wear and tear working its way through our universe.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is the matter of the perfect system, once cursed it isn't perfect, the imperfections
are just a natural out come of a system spinning out of spec. I don't call a car
breaking down evil, even if it causes the a life to damaged or ended, it is just
the normal wear and tear working its way through our universe.
Kelly

That's why I pointed out that the restriction of the word "evil" to refer to human moral affairs is a fairly modern restriction; in 1611, when the KJV was written, a car breaking down would have been called an "evil" event. That is why philosophers have talked about "moral evil" and "natural evil". If you dislike the historical terms, that's fine; the alternative PoS has already been mentioned.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is the matter of the perfect system, once cursed it isn't perfect, the imperfections
are just a natural out come of a system spinning out of spec. I don't call a car
breaking down evil, even if it causes the a life to damaged or ended, it is just
the normal wear and tear working its way through our universe.
Kelly

But who cursed it and why? That is central to the whole discussion.
If you knowingly sell someone a defective product, then the product breaking down is evil.
If God knew that his cursing the system would result in your car breaking down, then God is either evil, or you must provide a 'greater good' argument.
I have asked a number of times on these threads what purpose punishment serves in cases such as God cursing the system and I always seem to get the response that 'it just is'. For some reason, quite a lot of people seem to think that punishment is the right thing to do, regardless of the reason for it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But who cursed it and why? That is central to the whole discussion.
If you knowingly sell someone a defective product, then the product breaking down is evil.
If God knew that his cursing the system would result in your car breaking down, then God is either evil, or you must provide a 'greater good' argument.
I have asked a number of times on these thr ...[text shortened]... ple seem to think that punishment is the right thing to do, regardless of the reason for it.

The earth was cursed because we were given a perfect system and we sinned
in it. We were not given a defective product, we were given one that would have
met ever need we ever had without fail or fault. Instead we wanted what we
wanted, we murdered, we lied, we cast the blame else where and the results
are all about us.
Kelly

Originally posted by vistesd
That's why I pointed out that the restriction of the word "evil" to refer to human moral affairs is a fairly modern restriction; in 1611, when the KJV was written, a car breaking down would have been called an "evil" event. That is why philosophers have talked about "moral evil" and "natural evil". If you dislike the historical terms, that's fine; the alternative PoS has already been mentioned.

I believe evil has to do with intent, I do not judge all things bad because we do not
like them.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The earth was cursed because we were given a perfect system and we sinned
in it. We were not given a defective product, we were given one that would have
met ever need we ever had without fail or fault. Instead we wanted what we
wanted, we murdered, we lied, we cast the blame else where and the results
are all about us.
Kelly

First of all, your repeated attempts to lay the blame on me are clearly slanderous. When did I murder? If I didn't then why all the 'we'? I was born into a cursed world, how can you heap the blame on me?

Please answer my questions for once instead of trying to avoid the issue:
1. When God created the universe did he know that what is happening now would come to pass?
2. Did we directly make the perfect system defective, or was it as you said before - God cursed it?
3. If God cursed it, why did he curse it? Yes I know, we were all acting badly with the murdering and lying, but that doesn't explain why the earth would get cursed.
If it was a punishment of some sort, then what purpose does the punishment serve?

Originally posted by twhitehead
First of all, your repeated attempts to lay the blame on me are clearly slanderous. When did I murder? If I didn't then why all the 'we'? I was born into a cursed world, how can you heap the blame on me?

Please answer my questions for once instead of trying to avoid the issue:
1. When God created the universe did he know that what is happening now wou ...[text shortened]... cursed.
If it was a punishment of some sort, then what purpose does the punishment serve?

Did you see me lay any blame on you, I was talking about our grand...parents!
Early on in the time line all of those things happened, and early on in the time
line the results of those actions were set in motion. You and I were represented
by Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel we are the off spring, we are reaping from that
which they did. You were born of parents who have in their nature the very thing
that causes all of the above to occur. Once you were able to make up your mind
on how you live you've been going against the nature of love ever since too.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
First of all, your repeated attempts to lay the blame on me are clearly slanderous. When did I murder? If I didn't then why all the 'we'? I was born into a cursed world, how can you heap the blame on me?

Please answer my questions for once instead of trying to avoid the issue:
1. When God created the universe did he know that what is happening now wou ...[text shortened]... cursed.
If it was a punishment of some sort, then what purpose does the punishment serve?

1. When God created the universe did he know that what is happening now would come to pass?

I believe so.

2. Did we directly make the perfect system defective, or was it as you said before - God cursed it?

We introduced the flaws into the system yes.

3. If God cursed it, why did he curse it?

He cursed it because of the sin.

Yes I know, we were all acting badly with the murdering and lying, but that doesn't explain why the earth would get cursed.

We were in charge of the earth, so everything in our domain was affected by
our actions.

If it was a punishment of some sort, then what purpose does the punishment
serve?

The reasons behind the cause and effect I have no idea why.
Kelly

Genesis 3 NLT
“Since you listened to your wife and ate from the tree
whose fruit I commanded you not to eat,
the ground is cursed because of you.
All your life you will struggle to scratch a living from it.
18 It will grow thorns and thistles for you,
though you will eat of its grains.
19 By the sweat of your brow
will you have food to eat
until you return to the ground
from which you were made.
For you were made from dust,
and to dust you will return.”

Genesis 4
10 But the Lord said, “What have you done? Listen! Your brother’s blood cries out to me
from the ground! 11 Now you are cursed and banished from the ground, which has swallowed
your brother’s blood. 12 No longer will the ground yield good crops for you, no matter
how hard you work! From now on you will be a homeless wanderer on the earth.”

Originally posted by KellyJay
Did you see me lay any blame on you, I was talking about our grand...parents!
Early on in the time line all of those things happened, and early on in the time
line the results of those actions were set in motion. You and I were represented
by Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel we are the off spring, we are reaping from that
which they did.

So why do you keep saying 'we', when you mean Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel?

You were born of parents who have in their nature the very thing
that causes all of the above to occur. Once you were able to make up your mind
on how you live you've been going against the nature of love ever since too.
Kelly
Are you saying that I am evil by nature? That I am incapable of being good? Who is to blame for this again?

Originally posted by KellyJay
1. When God created the universe did he know that what is happening now would come to pass?

I believe so.

So God knowingly created a world that he knew would end up the way it is today. Is he not then responsible for it?

The reasons behind the cause and effect I have no idea why.
Finally an honest answer. So apparently when someone like Adam sins, it is necessary to curse the Earth. We don't know why.
So the real answer to the problem of Evil is an unknown rule of the universe. Odd that you couldn't just point that out at the beginning. Instead you tried hard to blame it all on 'us'.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So why do you keep saying 'we', when you mean Adam, Eve, Cain and Abel?

[b]You were born of parents who have in their nature the very thing
that causes all of the above to occur. Once you were able to make up your mind
on how you live you've been going against the nature of love ever since too.
Kelly
Are you saying that I am evil by nature? That I am incapable of being good? Who is to blame for this again?[/b]

I keep saying we, because we are who we are part of the human race.
Even Jesus told others that only one was good and that was God, we tend to
twist things to suit us, we want what we want, and we judge others for things
that we do while excusing ourselves. So yes, I'm saying because you are
part of the human race it is in your nature to sin. I'd even go beyond that and
this isn't just directed at you, I'd even say us at our best that our righteousness
is as filthy rags before God.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
So God knowingly created a world that he knew would end up the way it is today. Is he not then responsible for it?

[b]The reasons behind the cause and effect I have no idea why.
Finally an honest answer. So apparently when someone like Adam sins, it is necessary to curse the Earth. We don't know why.
So the real answer to the problem of Evil is a ...[text shortened]... uldn't just point that out at the beginning. Instead you tried hard to blame it all on 'us'.[/b]

He gave us a world we could have kept, he gave us all the tools to keep it, and
we did not. He is the author of all things, and he is working it all out I'd say that
where He is responsible He kept up His end of it all.

I see you are still want to justify yourself. If you want to tell me you are sinless
I'll just say okay! That is between you and God and those around you who know
you well. The problem with evil I see is that we can but do not avoid more times
than not.
Kelly

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I'm listening.

"Goodness" is a vague term. My conscience is most comfortable defining it in terms of suffering. Less suffering = more good. This seems to be most consistent with the vague idea of "goodness" we all share.

I do not see any value in "free will" whatsoever. I would far rather be a happy automaton then a being who is miserable but "free willed".