Originally posted by bbarr So, is it logically possible that a human in Heaven could choose to do evil? If so, would God allow it? If not, then what are His reasons for allowing it on Earth?
If so, would God allow it?
I don't think so.
If not, then what are His reasons for allowing it on Earth?
Heaven is where God dwells. Obviously a Holy God cannot allow evil there. Earth is where mankind dwell. A different dimension entirely. Just because God allows it on earth doesn't mean justice won't eventually be served.
Originally posted by Halitose [b]Therefore in response to one of your previous questions, yes, God should only create those beings he knows will choose to serve him.
Everybody should have their fair shot.
To deliberately create beings that he is certain will spend eternity in Hell is evil to the greatest possible degree.
Once again, you're blaming God for your own decisions. Get real.[/b]
That's a pretty lame excuse. It's not clear that they should have a "fair" chance. In fact, that response is downright pathetic. It's like giving a child a chainsaw, cuz hell, everybody should have a fair shot. Quite simply, no, not everybody should have a fair shot. The certain outcome of eternal suffering infinitely outways any weak appeals to some distorted sense of equity.
Once again, you're blaming God for your own decisions. Get real.
No, I am judging his decision to create people he knows will use their free will not to serve him. Given what you said earlier in this thread, he has the power to create only people who will choose to serve him without violating their free will. The appropriate question then is why does he desire to that billions of souls suffer eternal agony? You see my "blaming" God has nothing to do with my decisions, but with his. I don't even enter the equation.
Originally posted by Halitose [b]If so, would God allow it?
I don't think so.
If not, then what are His reasons for allowing it on Earth?
Heaven is where God dwells. Obviously a Holy God cannot allow evil there. Earth is where mankind dwell. A different dimension entirely. Just because God allows it on earth doesn't mean justice won't eventually be served.[/b]
Why should it matter that Heaven and Earth are different dimensions (if that is, in fact, the case)? God is no less present in this dimension than in Heaven, correct? It is not as if God's power or knowledge or goodness is constrained on Earth because He resides in Heaven. The point is simply this: If it a function of God's properties that He would not allow evil to be done in Heaven, and if this is consistent with humans having free will in Heaven, then there is no reason why God could not prevent evil being done on Earth. Yet God does not prevent evil being done on Earth. So, God is remiss in His moral obligations on Earth. So, God is not morally perfect.
Originally posted by Halitose [b]If so, would God allow it?
I don't think so.
If not, then what are His reasons for allowing it on Earth?
Heaven is where God dwells. Obviously a Holy God cannot allow evil there. Earth is where mankind dwell. A different dimension entirely. Just because God allows it on earth doesn't mean justice won't eventually be served.[/b]
How would you answer bennet's first question?
So, is it logically possible that a human in Heaven could choose to do evil?
Originally posted by telerion That's a pretty lame excuse. It's not clear that they should have a "fair" chance. In fact, that response is downright pathetic. It's like giving a child a chainsaw, cuz hell, everybody should have a fair shot. Quite simply, no, not everybody should have a fair shot. The certain outcome of eternal suffering infinitely outways any weak appeals to s ...[text shortened]... God has nothing to do with my decisions, but with his. I don't even enter the equation.
Where did I concede that God knows what decisions man will make? Stop ranting on about something I never said.
Originally posted by Halitose I'd assume so; Lucifer did.
But above you said God would not allow evil in Heaven. So, you must think that if a human attempted to do evil in Heaven, God would intervene. Is that correct?
Originally posted by bbarr Why should it matter that Heaven and Earth are different dimensions (if that is, in fact, the case)? God is no less present in this dimension than in Heaven, correct? It is not as if God's power or knowledge or goodness is constrained on Earth because He resides in Heaven. The point is simply this: If it a function of God's properties that He would not a ...[text shortened]... on Earth. So, God is remiss in His moral obligations on Earth. So, God is not morally perfect.
Why should it matter that Heaven and Earth are different dimensions (if that is, in fact, the case)?
The difference is that in Heaven humans are no longer mortal, physically bound men. There man will have the perfect moral perspective on each action and decision.
I'm just theorising here, as neither of us have in fact been to heaven. Abducted by aliens, yes.
God is no less present in this dimension than in Heaven, correct?
Yes.
It is not as if God's power or knowledge or goodness is constrained on Earth because He resides in Heaven.
True.
If it a function of God's properties that He would not allow evil to be done in Heaven, and if this is consistent with humans having free will in Heaven, then there is no reason why God could not prevent evil being done on Earth.
I couldn't say for sure that God would preemptively destroy evil in heaven, but he sure would punish it. The difference is that on earth God punishes evil in His time.
So, God is remiss in His moral obligations on Earth. So, God is not morally perfect.
As stated above, I misunderstood your "prevent evil" as destroying it after it happened. When it comes to God preempting evil, I'm not too sure if that is God's moral obligation.
Originally posted by Halitose [b]Why should it matter that Heaven and Earth are different dimensions (if that is, in fact, the case)?
The difference is that in Heaven humans are no longer mortal, physically bound men. There man will have the perfect moral perspective on each action and decision.
I'm just theorising here, as neither of us have in fact been to heaven. Abducte ...[text shortened]... ned. When it comes to God preempting evil, I'm not too sure if that is God's moral obligation.[/b]
If in Heaven humans have all have a perfect moral perspective, then it will, in fact, be logically impossible for anybody to choose to do evil. So, you are contradicting yourself.
Originally posted by bbarr If in Heaven humans have all have a perfect moral perspective, then it will, in fact, be logically impossible for anybody to choose to do evil. So, you are contradicting yourself.
I think you are mistakenly working off the premise that man is essentially good and would not choose evil if he had the perfect moral perspective. I contend that the very essense of free will is the ability to choose evil while having the complete picture.
Originally posted by Halitose I think you are mistakenly working off the premise that man is essentially good and would not choose evil if he had the perfect moral perspective. I contend that the very essense of free will is the ability to choose evil while having the complete picture.
This is why I prefer to think in terms of worldly vs spiritual matters. worldly is the source of error (evil) and as of yet ,we have an imperfect connection with the spiritual.
Originally posted by Halitose I think you are mistakenly working off the premise that man is essentially good and would not choose evil if he had the perfect moral perspective. I contend that the very essense of free will is the ability to choose evil while having the complete picture.
How does somebody with a perfect moral perspective freely choose evil? Having a perfect moral perspective is partly constituted by having one's ethical beliefs track the moral truth. For one to have a perfect moral perspective and yet choose evil, one would have to both really believe that act A is wrong and yet choose to perform act A.
Anyway, suppose you are right. If so, then regardless of whether humans in Heaven have a perfect moral perspective, it is still possible for them to choose to do evil. So, the having of a perfect moral perspective is really irrelevant to my question above: what is so different between the Heavenly and Earthly dimensions such that God would intervene to prevent evil in the former but fail to intervene in the latter?
Originally posted by frogstomp This is why I prefer to think in terms of worldly vs spiritual matters. worldly is the source of error (evil) and as of yet ,we have an imperfect connection with the spiritual.
I actually feel the same way about it. I just use more/less technical jargon such as conversion, spiritual growth etc.
The Lord's Name.
17 Sep '05 19:40
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