The meaning of the cross

Thank you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I don't think you really understand what a non sequitur is.

Whether or not it is a non sequitur (arguably), Suzianne's got a point. You wrote: "If you died in a car crash would you wear a small replica of the wrecked car around your neck?". Clearly not because I'd be dead.

Is it okay to wear a cross or a torture stake as a necklace?

A Christian should not simply consider what is right or wrong to do. She or he should check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace.

Romans 8:6 says " For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)

As Christians we have to sense whether there is life - divine and spiritual life, and peace deep within.

When I rented in a house with some Christians, I one day went into the attic. I discovered there a wooden cross with the figure of a man nailed to it. I thought that this would be a good thing for me, as a believer in Jesus, to hang up in my room.

When I brought it down I lost the sense of peace within. Instead of being at peace there was a bothering inside. I did not know a lot of scriptures about the matter at that time. The sweetness of the Lord's presence was just interrupted.

The mind checking the human spirit within should be life and peace. We are told not to quench the Spirit. And the Holy Spirit is with the human spirit - "He who is joined to the Lord is one spirit" (1 Cor. 6:17)

If our joy is diminished, if we feel bothered within, if we sense weakness or darkness or emptiness within or a lack of peace, it may be a sign that we are quenching the Holy Spirit.

I returned the item and had nothing more to do with it. So you ask me about the wearing of crosses ? I would say that along with your recollection of the word of God you also take care of the sense of life and peace about it.

"Do not quench the Spirit." (1 Thess. 5:19)

" And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, in whom you were sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30)

"For those who are according to the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but those who are according to the spirit mind the things of the Spirit.

"For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:5,6)

We have to know the word and we also have to pay attention to the sense of life and peace.

" And let the peace of Christ arbitrate in your hearts, to which also you were called in one Body; and be thankful." (Col. 3:15)

Practice to thank God for the things that you wish to do. This helps to know if the peace of God is leading us to do something or to refrain from doing something.

Originally posted by sonship
[b] Is it okay to wear a cross or a torture stake as a necklace?

A Christian should not simply consider what is right or wrong to do. She or he should check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace.

Romans 8:6 says " For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is li ...[text shortened]... ps to know if the peace of God is leading us to do something or to refrain from doing something.

Interesting piece of nonsense here : You said :

A Christian should not simply consider what is right or wrong to do. She or he should check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace.

Romans 8:6 says " For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6)

As Christians we have to sense whether there is life - divine and spiritual life, and peace deep within

So a Christian woman about to commit adultery should not consider the right or wrong of adultery but more importantly whether or not she would have life and peace by her adulterous act.

Yet another reason why many Christians make bad decisions.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Interesting piece of nonsense here : You said :

[quote]A Christian should not simply consider what is right or wrong to do. She or he should check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace.

Romans 8:6 says " For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the spirit is life and peace." (Rom. 8:6) ...[text shortened]... e and peace by her adulterous act.

Yet another reason why many Christians make bad decisions.

Before I engage you in a reply to help you -

So you say Romans 8:6 is "nonsense" ?
And you say First Thessalonians 5:19 is also "nonsense" ?
And you say that Eph. 4:30 as well as Col. 3:15 are also both "nonsense" ?

Maybe you have experience of these these passages. Maybe they are speaking of characteristics of the Christian life of which you have no experience.

I would like to know from any other people who claim to know Christ as their Lord and Savior if they feel with Rajk999, that what I wrote above and referenced in the New Testament is "nonsense".

I have no need to have atheists or agnostics chime in.
I expect them to consider these exhortations as nonsense.

While we wait for Rajk999 to reiterate that these passages with my explanation are "nonsense" and lead to bad decisions, let's see if we can see any examples of this kind of living.

Did the Apostle Paul practice himself what he exhorted his audience to do? That is to check the sense of life and peace in his innermost being?

Oh Brother Paul, could you tell us of these things ?

"Furthermore, when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ and a door was open to me in the Lord,

I had no rest in my spirit, for I did not find Titus my brother, but taking leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia." (2 Cor. 2:12,13)

Paul was an evangelist. He says a wonderful opportunity was opened to him to do some evangelistic work in the city of Troas. He says a door was opened to him in the Lord.

Instead of doing just what he normally should want to do, he checked the sense of life and peace in his spirit. He found that he did not have the peace to do his typical work. He had NO REST in his [human] spirit. He would not go headlong and do what a typical Christian evangelist would be expected to do. He HAD to have the rest and peace in his spirit.

His brother Titus was not there to assist him. And though everything outwardly looked good to go he had NO REST in his innermost being, his spirit, to wprk.

In the book of Romans he exhorts the Christians that the believers mind set on the regenerated spirit is life and peace. What Paul LIVED he also taught.

Let see how Rajk999 will wiggle out of this proof of Paul practicing Romans 8:6 and other exhortations about checking the spirit within where the Spirit of Jesus lives in the man born again.

Originally posted by sonship
While we wait for Rajk999 to reiterate that these passages with my explanation are "nonsense" and lead to bad decisions, let's see if we can see any examples of this kind of living.

Did the Apostle Paul practice himself what he exhorted his audience to do? That is to check the sense of life and peace in his innermost being?

Oh Brother Paul, could y ...[text shortened]... rtations about checking the spirit within where the Spirit of Jesus lives in the man born again.

Well first I dont not need your help. Next I never said that any Bible reference was nonsense. YOUR INTERPRETATION IS NONSENSE... YOURS.

Your statement implies that it is not important to determione right from wrong, and this is in complete contradiction to the teachings of the Bible. Paul in Romans says

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Here the Christian has to determine what is carnal and what is spritual or in other words what is RIGHT FROM WRONG. Carnal/Flesh = death, Spiritual = life and peace.

Paul gave a long list of what flesh/carnal means:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Rom 1:28-32)

What you are failing to understand the cause and effect.
- Living in the flesh OR sinfulness, leads to death
- Living in the spirit OR righteousness, leads to life and peace.

Nobody has to ".... check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace. .." Life and peace is the inevitable END RESULT of living righteously. Death is the inevitable END RESULT of living in the flesh.

Well first I dont not need your help.
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You're too proud to receive any.
"God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble."


Next I never said that any Bible reference was nonsense. YOUR INTERPRETATION IS NONSENSE... YOURS.
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We'll see how you interpret "the mind set on the spirit is life and peace". And I would be glad to get any help you might extend. I am not too proud to say I could never bee helped by another student of the Scripture.

But it has to enhance my experience of Jesus Christ.

Your statement implies that it is not important to determione right from wrong,
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If my statement was meant to be taken that way I would not have written this:

A Christian should not simply consider what is right or wrong to do. She or he should check with their innermost being, their spirit, to sense whether they have life and peace.

The words in bold are the important ones. I SAID, for a Christian, it was not to "SIMPLY ... to consider what is right or wrong to do."

It is often more sensitive then that, more intricate then that. Situations call for deeper wisdom. Situations are often much more subtle and nuanced. And the Lord Jesus wants His people to depend upon Him moment by moment.

You misrepresent what I wrote.

and this is in complete contradiction to the teachings of the Bible. Paul in Romans says
Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death;
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I recommend the better translation to be "the mind set on the flesh" or "the mind set on the spirit" as the Recovery Version translates it. But if you want to go with "carnally minded" it is acceptable.


but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
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To be "spiritually minded" is not simply to know doctrines.
It is to set the mind on the spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is in the Christian.

"The Lord be with your spirit." (2 Tim. 4:22)


Here the Christian has to determine what is carnal and what is spritual or in other words what is RIGHT FROM WRONG.
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No it is deeper than that. What is needed is to see it is right always to depend upon the living and available Christ. It is always right to "Walk by the Spirit".

Explain to the Forum why the entire fall of man away from God started with Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in Genesis 3 ? This is the tree of Right and Wrong.

Your next post, I hope, will explain why sin and death was the result of man eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (right and wrong).

Why didn't Adam after eating of that tree simply do the "good" things ? He had the knowledge. He had the knowledge of right and wrong. How come the eating of that "knowledge of good and evil" resulted in the plunging of mankind into sin and death ?

Go back before Romans 8 and re-read Romans 7. Get the "help" from the New Testament itself if you will not receive it from me.

Carnal/Flesh = death, Spiritual = life and peace.
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The mind set on the flesh is death.
The mind set on the spirit is divine life and peace.
And the PEACE of Christ should act as an umpire in our hearts. The PEACE of Christ must act as an ARBITRATOR deciding most delicate and difficult decisions which are often to subtle to handle by "the knowledge of good and evil".

That is why I included -

" And let the peace of Christ arbitrate in your hearts, to which also you were called in one Body; and be thankful." (Col. 3:15)

The PEACE, the life and peace deep in the Christian's spirit is an Arbitrator, and a Comforter leading the Christians into all the truth.

Here again the peace of Christ will guard the believers hearts and thoughts in Christ Jesus the living and available Savior.

" And the peace of Christ, which surpasses every man's understanding, will guard your hearts and your thoughts in Christ Jesus." (Phil. 4:7)

Did you notice what the Apostle Paul wrote there? The peace of Christ " surpasses every man's understanding ". The peace of Christ is deeper than the intellectual understanding. And the peace will act as a guardian to keep the Christian's heart and thoughts in the realm of a living Person - "in Christ Jesus" .


Paul gave a long list of what flesh/carnal means:
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He gave a REPRESENTATIVE list. His list is by no means EXHAUSTIVE.

Did you see many, many other things which are weaknesses, sins, wrongdoings, transgressions against God and man, there ?

So to his REPRESENTATIVE list we disciples of Jesus have also to set the mind on the regenerated spirit to sense the life and peace of God's happiness or God's grieving with our moment by moment living.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Rom 1:28-32)
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The list is only a sample of representative things. Some things are not so obviously gross sins. And the proof that it is a REPRESENTATIVE list is in the words in verse 32 -

"... those who practice SUCH THINGS are worthy of death ..."

The phrase "such things" indicate that the list is only a sample of representative sins.

To be fair, the book of Hebrews, does speak of the believers discernment sharpened to detect good and evil -

"But solid food is for the full-grown, who because of practice have their faculties exercised for discriminating between good and evil." (Heb. 5:14)

But the very same book speaks of the need for the Christian to discern his spirit from his soul. And the Lord is with the believer's spirit, where also life and peace are:

"For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing to the dividing of soul and spirit and of joints and marrow and able to discern the thoughts and intentions of the heart." (Heb. 4:12)

Aside from the knowing in the soul's mentality, there is the need for the living word to discern deep down to divide soul and spirit in the Christian. The peace passes every man's understanding. And the actual hidden motive of the heart is brought into the light of God.

Do you know that you can to evil by doing the "right" thing ?
A man can do evil under the guise of doing the "good" and "right" thing.

So the mind of the Christian must go deeper to be set on the spirit to sense the peace and divine life. And so Paul did not simply go through the obviously suitable outward opportunity. Oh, no. This servant of God was well trained.

He found no peace in his spirit and he let the PEACE govern his actions. Many a Christian evangelist has FAILED this test. And that is why some of them go astray into celebrity status, shameful wealth flaunting, scandal, excess.

They never learned seriously not to consider JUST the outward opportunity to do a Christian work. They should have learned with Paul to be governed also by the rest in their spirit.

"Furthermore, when I came to Troas for the gospel of Christ AND A DOOR [of opportunity] was open to me in the Lord,

I had no rest in my spirit ... " (2 Cor. 2:32,33a)

So he did the right living thing. He allowed himself to be governed by the deeper sense of life and peace in his spirit. [EDITED]

" ... for I did not find Titus my brother; but taking leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia."

Originally posted by sonship
To be fair, the book of [b]Hebrews, does speak of the believers discernment sharpened to detect good and evil -

"But solid food is for the full-grown, who because of practice have their faculties exercised for discriminating between good and evil." (Heb. 5:14)

But the very same book speaks of the need for the Christian ...[text shortened]... not find Titus my brother; but taking leave of them, I went forth into Macedonia." [/b] [/quote][/b]

All that mumbo jumbo only serves to detract from the main point.

Sin / Flesh / Carnal Living LEADS TO Eternal Death

Spiritual Life in Christ / Righteousness LEADS TO Eternal life and Peace.

Other instances of the need for the Christian to set the mind on the spirit.

1.) Paul served God in his human spirit, calling it "my spirit" :

" For God is my witness, whom I serve in my spirit ... " (see Rom. 1:9)

Paul mentions his own spirit. He served God in his own spirit where the Spirit of Christ was.

2.) Paul said that the Christian brothers and sisters were refreshed in their inward parts. This means they sense the well being and peace in their own regenerated spirits.

"For I had much joy and encouragement over your love, because the inward parts of the saints have been refreshed through you, brother." (Philemon vs 7)

3.) Paul also said his own "inward parts" needed to be refreshed by a brother.

"Yes, brother, may I have profit from you in the Lord, refresh my inward parts in Christ." (Philemon vs. 20)

4.) Paul encourage the Galatians to take heed to their spirits because the grace of Christ was with it:

" The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit, brothers. Amen" (Galatians 6:18)

5.) Paul's last word written in the NT was to remind his younger colleague that the Lord was with his spirit. And grace was with him:

" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." ( 2 Tim. 4:22)

All these passages have to do with a Christian setting his or her mind on the enlivened human spirit in the innermost part of their being.

6.) Paul reminds the Ephesian saints that the grace of the Lord Jesus is with their spirit:

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Eph. 4:23)

7.) Paul tells the Roman Christians that the Holy Spirit bears witness WITH their spirit that they are in God's family. They sense this by setting the mind on the spirit:

" The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God." (Rom. 8:16)

8.) Again Paul tells the Christians in Philippi that the grace of Christ is with their spirit:

" The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ be with your spirit." (Phil. 1:23)

No wonder Paul's final and concluding word of exhortation was that the Lord Jesus Christ was with the Christians' spirit -

" The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim. 4:22)

For the Christian the cross is in the Holy Spirit.

The terminating power of God is IN the presence of the Holy Spirit.
To come into the realm of the Spirit in various situations unleashes the terminating action of the cross to "cross out" undesireable and negative things of the old nature.

I am going to repeat that before I give a supporting verse that some of us have experienced.

To into the realm of the Holy Spirit in various situations causes the believer to avail herself of the power of terminating old and fallen aspects of the old Adamic sinful nature.

Right here:

" For is you live according to the flesh, you must die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the practices of the body, you will live." (Romans 8:13)

By the Spirit - by the presence of the Holy Spirit "put to death" the practices of the fallen body.

This means that the Christian can utilize the presence of the Spirit of Christ to terminate the negative habits and practices making his life miserable. He applies the Spirit. And in the Spirit is the terminating power.

This is not self-reform.
This is neither self-improvement.
It is not struggling or striving to do better or turn over a new leaf in life.

This is turning within to the Holy Spirit that the terminating power residing IN the Holy Spirit may be applied to fallen sinful practices of the body.

By the Spirit ... put to death ... the practices of the body. The cross is IN the Spirit. So you have to receive the Lord Jesus that the Spirit of Jesus, the Holy Spirit may cause Jesus to live in you in a blended way - with YOU.

And there is a world of difference between simply nodding that you agree with the fact that as a man you have "spirit and soul and body" (1 Thess. 5:23) and touching your spirit.

There is a difference between agreeing that doctrinally, having a human spirit makes Bible sense and knowing " Praise God! That is MY spirit. I have touched MY spirit! "

The latter is where the Christian must get to. That is to exercise his or her spirit to experience Jesus Christ.

You need to use your mouth very often, to be able to exercise your spirit where the Spirit of Jesus is in the Christian.