'the moment of great doubt'

it is said in the zen tradtition that before we come to enlightenment we pass through this 'moment of great doubt'.Makes me think that as ones faith grows so does their doubt. What an interesting and paradoxical 'mechanic' of the human mind this appears to be...

Originally posted by karoly aczel
it is said in the zen tradtition that before we come to enlightenment we pass through this 'moment of great doubt'.Makes me think that as ones faith grows so does their doubt. What an interesting and paradoxical 'mechanic' of the human mind this appears to be...

I've passed that moment.

Originally posted by scherzo
I've passed that moment.

Are you sure? Is there absolutely no division or delusion in your mind?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Are you sure? Is there absolutely no division or delusion in your mind?

Yes. I know without a shadow of a doubt that I am completely and truly Muslim.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
it is said in the zen tradtition that before we come to enlightenment we pass through this 'moment of great doubt'.Makes me think that as ones faith grows so does their doubt. What an interesting and paradoxical 'mechanic' of the human mind this appears to be...

Doubt is associated with thinking, believing, questioning, etc. Zen points beneath that, to the “substrate”, so to speak.

The “great doubt” of Zen refers to the doubt that one can let go of all that, even for a short time, and just be aware of the reality about which we do all that conceptualizing, thinking, believing, questioning. That reality also includes us, doing all that thinking, etc.

It can be, perhaps, especially fearful when one realizes that we also have a whole complex of “I-thoughts”, by which we have learned to self-identify—that is, we identify ourselves by a certain set of “I-thoughts”, which we might take to be our actual nature, rather than simply thoughts. Our actual nature is (in part, anyway) what is doing allthat thinking, learning, identifying, etc. The “great doubt” might be thought of as doubt in the face of dis-identifying with all that to get to the substrate, where our actual nature is.

We may often be so wedded to our concepts/ideas about reality (including ourselves) that we forget that reality (including ourselves) is prior to all that. Zen points to that prior reality.

Just as a map must be tested against the actual territory (and not the other way ‘round), all our thoughts need to be tested against that reality which is prior to all thinking about it—and that includes all our “I-thoughts”. To do that, one must set aside all thinking for awhile, and just be aware. That’s all that meditation really is: observing prior to thinking—and, if thoughts do arise, then one just observes the thought process in the same way that one observes a flock of geese winging across the sky, or hummingbirds in their dancing, or (with the hearing sense) a cluster of birdsong. Things like Zen koans and such are just means for helping one to “collapse” that continual cycle of thinking that many of us become accustomed to.

Thinking is part of our nature, too. But, ultimately, we either think about that prior reality—and recognize our thoughts as just thoughts, our concepts as concepts, and not the underlying reality itself—or we just think thoughts about other thoughts about other thoughts…

In the end, the “great doubt” is nothing special, just as so-called “enlightenment” is nothing special. (Frankly, the only reason to talk about “great doubt” is so that someone can recognize it if it arises, and not to be afraid of it.)

Originally posted by vistesd
Doubt is associated with thinking, believing, questioning, etc. Zen points beneath that, to the “substrate”, so to speak.

The “great doubt” of Zen refers to the doubt that one can let go of all that, even for a short time, and just be aware of the reality about which we do all that conceptualizing, thinking, believing, questioning. That r ...[text shortened]... out “great doubt” is so that someone can recognize it if it arises, and not to be afraid of it.)

do you think scherzo has passed this 'moment'?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
it is said in the zen tradtition that before we come to enlightenment we pass through this 'moment of great doubt'.Makes me think that as ones faith grows so does their doubt. What an interesting and paradoxical 'mechanic' of the human mind this appears to be...

UB40 - Higher Ground

Every hour of every day I'm learning more
The more I learn, the less I know about before
The less I know, the more I want to look around
Digging deep for clues on higher ground

Originally posted by twhitehead
UB40 - Higher Ground

Every hour of every day I'm learning more
The more I learn, the less I know about before
The less I know, the more I want to look around
Digging deep for clues on higher ground

thats nice ,new for me

As i understand at the 'moment of great doubt' the asspirant becomes totally consumed,(within that moment), and perspires profusely as (s)he leaves this 3-d world and (re)discovers their place in 'heaven',which they realize they never left.
( Any corrections or insights welcome)

Originally posted by karoly aczel
it is said in the zen tradtition that before we come to enlightenment we pass through this 'moment of great doubt'.Makes me think that as ones faith grows so does their doubt. What an interesting and paradoxical 'mechanic' of the human mind this appears to be...

seems he played chess,

Originally posted by stoker
seems he played chess,

Apparently chess is a good game to keep the mind active and alert.
(for some people)
Any comments welcome

Originally posted by karoly aczel
do you think scherzo has passed this 'moment'?

I cannot judge scherzo’s experience.

On the one hand, it was not so long ago that he would declare, with equal fervor, that he was not a Muslim.

On the other hand, I believe that it is a principle of Islam that we are all born Muslim, but we have forgotten that, or that awareness has been veiled by illusion. I would take that to be a claim that the “substrate” that I mentioned includes the awareness of Allah—whether Allah is conceived dualistically or non-dualistically (there are Muslim non-dualists, notably the Sufis).

Again, I cannot and do not judge scherzo’s experience; nor more than I judge, say, Cat Stevens/Yusuf Islam’s experience (who himself has learned from the Sufis, as evidenced on his album Another Cup).

_________________________________________________

And, for all of us I think, twhitehead’s quote fromUB40 holds—or ought to hold—true.

The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know. -- Socrates

The more you know, the less you understand. -- Lao-Tse

The more you learn, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you forget.
The more you forget, the less you know.
So why bother to learn? -- George Bernard Shaw

Originally posted by greenpawn34
The more I learn, the more I learn how little I know. -- Socrates

The more you know, the less you understand. -- Lao-Tse

The more you learn, the more you know.
The more you know, the more you forget.
The more you forget, the less you know.
So why bother to learn? -- George Bernard Shaw

You have just made the day of any high-school student on this forum. 😉 I shouldn't show my children.

No you learn so you can use it.