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    03 Sep '14 00:051 edit
    For those of the Christian faith, there is nothing more puzzling that the character Enoch. In Genesis chapter 5 we are first briefly introduced to Enoch, and just as fast we are told that God "took him".

    Genesis 5:24 And Jared lived an 162 years, and he begat Enoch. And Jared lived after he begat Enoch 800 years, and begat sons and daughters. And all the days of Jared were 962 years, and he died. And Enoch lived 65 years, and he begat Methuselah. And Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah 300 years and begat sons and daughters. And all the days of Enoch were 365 years. "And Enoch walked with God, and he was not, for God took him." And Methuselah lived an 187 years, and begat Lamech"

    Wait.....Wut!!


    According the scripture, Enoch walked so closely with God that God simply took him.

    In this regard, Enoch is unparalleled among men, excepting perhaps Elijah who was taken by God into heaven. These were not apparent deaths, rather, they escaped death entirely and were simply taken into heaven.

    At least with Elijah, we have a history. We know what he did and who he was in detail. However, not so with Enoch. Enoch is simply a mystery man.

    To further the mystery of the man called Enoch, there is a book written called the book of Enoch. In fact, many scholars are convinced that the book of Enoch is quoted in the book of Jude.

    Jude 1:14 "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, "Behold, the Lord comes with 10,000 of his saints. To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all them ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of them hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against them."

    Now read Enoch Chapter 2.

    "Behold, he comes with 10,000 of his saints, to execute judgement upon them, and destroy the wicked, and reprove all the carnal for everything which the sinful and ungodly have done, and committed against him."

    What is certain by all, is that the Book of Enoch precedes that of Jude by centuries, so it is obvious to scholars that Jude is quoting the book of Enoch.

    What I find interesting, is that upon researching the book of Enoch, many early Christians apparently accepted it as scripture. The book of Enoch exited centuries before the birth of Christ and yet it is considered to be more Christian in its theology than Jewish. The earliest literature of the so-called church fathers is filled with references to the book. Church fathers like Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Origin, and Clement of Alexandria all make use of the book of Enoch. It was widely known the first 3 centuries after Christ.

    This and many other books became discredited after the Council of Laodicea. After being under ban by authorities, it gradually passed out of circulation.

    I invite input from all, scoffers as well as those who may think Enoch should be scripture. I have no horse in the race, I simply enjoy studying this kind of thing.

    From my vantage point, most of what I've read that was excluded by the Council of Laodicea, should have been. Most of the writings occurred well after the time of Christ, so far removed from the time of Christ that it should be discredited. However, Enoch is unique, not only as being before the time of Christ, but also because it was used widely in early Christiandom. I can't really put my finger on it, but I think there is something God inspired about it. I am starting to read it once again and will share insights I find interesting.

    Enjoy.
  2. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '14 00:21
    Originally posted by whodey
    For those of the Christian faith, there is nothing more puzzling that the character Enoch. In Genesis chapter 5 we are first briefly introduced to Enoch, and just as fast we are told that God "took him".

    Genesis 5:24 And Jared lived an 162 years, and he begat Enoch. And Jared lived after he begat Enoch 800 years, and begat sons and daughters. And all the ...[text shortened]... t it. I am starting to read it once again and will share insights I find interesting.

    Enjoy.
    Been there, done that. I started reading some of these old books about 15 years ago when they became easily available on the internet. I have to say these books open your eyes to a lot of stuff in the Bible which dont make sense at first reading. So if you are now starting out .. enjoy. Its going to seriously change your perspective.
  3. Joined
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    03 Sep '14 01:031 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Been there, done that. I started reading some of these old books about 15 years ago when they became easily available on the internet. I have to say these books open your eyes to a lot of stuff in the Bible which dont make sense at first reading. So if you are now starting out .. enjoy. Its going to seriously change your perspective.
    Do you think Enoch should have been canonized? Is it legit?
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '14 01:10
    Originally posted by whodey
    Do you think Enoch should have been canonized? Is it legit?
    Cannonized? Not sure. It was not really part of the Jewish Bible or Greek Bible [Septuagint]. There are many books that were part of the Greek Bible which the Apostles used do their preaching, but were left out of the KJV. The Ethopian Orthodox Church stilll have the book of Enoch in their Bibles.

    Legit? Yes, in the sense that Enoch was a bonafide a prophet and recognised by the Apostles as you stated. Much of what is written in the book accords well with the KJV.
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    03 Sep '14 02:011 edit
    While reading the book of Enoch, I came upon this verse.

    "At that place, I saw the One to whom belongs the time before time. And his head was like white wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one--from among the angels--who was going with me, and who had revealed to me all the secrets regarding the One who was born of human beings. Who is this, and from whence is he who is going as the prototype of the Before-Time? And he answered me and said to me, This is the Son of Man, to whom belongs righteousness, and with whom righteousness dwells. And he will open all the hidden storerooms; for the Lord of the Spirits has chosen him, and he is destined to be victorious before the Lord of Spirits in eternal uprightness. This Son of Man whom you have seen is the One who would remove the kings and the mighty ones from their comfortable seats and the strong ones from their thrones. He shall loosen the reins of the strong and crush the teeth of the sinners. He shall depose the kings from their thrones and kingdoms. For they do not extol and glorify him, and neither do they obey him, the source of their kingship. The faces of the strong will be slapped and be filled with shame and gloom. Their dwelling places and their beds will be worms. They shall have no hope to rise from their beds, for they do not extol the name of the Lord of Spirits. They manifest all their deeds in oppression; all their deeds are oppression, for their power depends upon their wealth."


    This is simply startling. Here we have a book written well before the time of Christ essentially picturing him as anything but a mortal man, even though he is in the image of a man. This means that the deity of Christ was not a construct of Paul, it existed well before Paul. It also drives a nail in the coffin of JW's. No, Jesus is not the archangel Michael.

    Many Christians used the book of Enoch for the first 300 years of Christianity, but fell out of favor once the Bible was canonized.

    Also, it strikes me that Enoch takes such a dim view of world leaders, essentially suggesting that they will all burn in hell for an eternity. Perhaps this is why leaders such as Constantine, who was not even a Christian except for perhaps on his death bed, shunned books like Enoch.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '14 03:54
    Originally posted by whodey
    While reading the book of Enoch, I came upon this verse.

    "At that place, I saw the One to whom belongs the time before time. And his head was like white wool, and there was with him another individual, whose face was like that of a human being. His countenance was full of grace like that of one among the holy angels. And I asked the one--from among the ang ...[text shortened]... ine, who was not even a Christian except for perhaps on his death bed, shunned books like Enoch.
    I grew up with a staunch Christadelphian background. They actually believe that Jesus had no existence prior to his arrival on earth as the son of Mary. So when I presented my parents [and others] with that passage they simply shrugged and said "thats not the Holy Bible". I guess the JWs will do the same.

    That passage by the way also runs contrary to any doctrine which says that God and Jesus Christ and one and the same. They are obviously two separate and distinct entities with separate and distinct functions and duties.
  7. Standard memberRBHILL
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    03 Sep '14 05:27
    Originally posted by whodey
    For those of the Christian faith, there is nothing more puzzling that the character Enoch. In Genesis chapter 5 we are first briefly introduced to Enoch, and just as fast we are told that God "took him".

    Genesis 5:24 And Jared lived an 162 years, and he begat Enoch. And Jared lived after he begat Enoch 800 years, and begat sons and daughters. And all the ...[text shortened]... t it. I am starting to read it once again and will share insights I find interesting.

    Enjoy.
    The book of Enoch says in it not to be added to the Bible. It is a book for the last generation. So maybe for those left behind. I got it on amazon about 3 months ago but haven't got to it. Reading other study books first.
  8. Standard memberlemon lime
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    03 Sep '14 06:34
    Originally posted by whodey
    For those of the Christian faith, there is nothing more puzzling that the character Enoch. In Genesis chapter 5 we are first briefly introduced to Enoch, and just as fast we are told that God "took him".

    Genesis 5:24 And Jared lived an 162 years, and he begat Enoch. And Jared lived after he begat Enoch 800 years, and begat sons and daughters. And all the ...[text shortened]... t it. I am starting to read it once again and will share insights I find interesting.

    Enjoy.
    We know that both Enoch and Elijah did not experience physical death. We know that Enoch was alive before the flood and Elijah after the flood, and we know the flood came as Gods first judgement upon the world.

    If memory serves, in the book of Revelations it talks about two witnesses who show up and create a PR problem for the anti-Christ. It doesn't say who these two witnesses are or where they came from, so I'm wondering if they could possibly be Enoch and Elijah.

    This is just speculation on my part, but I'm wondering if there might be anything written somewhere that identifies who these two men are.
  9. Joined
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    03 Sep '14 09:54
    Originally posted by lemon lime
    We know that both Enoch and Elijah did not experience physical death. We know that Enoch was alive before the flood and Elijah after the flood, and we know the flood came as Gods first judgement upon the world.

    If memory serves, in the book of Revelations it talks about two witnesses who show up and create a PR problem for the anti-Christ. It doesn't s ...[text shortened]... 'm wondering if there might be anything written somewhere that identifies who these two men are.
    I would say it's a definite maybe
  10. Joined
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    03 Sep '14 09:571 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I grew up with a staunch Christadelphian background. They actually believe that Jesus had no existence prior to his arrival on earth as the son of Mary. So when I presented my parents [and others] with that passage they simply shrugged and said "thats not the Holy Bible". I guess the JWs will do the same.

    That passage by the way also runs contrary to any ...[text shortened]... re obviously two separate and distinct entities with separate and distinct functions and duties.
    But Jesus admitted as much when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am".

    The relationship between the Son and the Father is a mystery. However, we are triune beings as well with a soul, spirit, and body.


    If Jesus is the image of a man, and we were made in the image of God, you put the pieces together.
  11. Standard memberRajk999
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    03 Sep '14 15:08
    Originally posted by whodey
    But Jesus admitted as much when he said, "Before Abraham was, I am".

    The relationship between the Son and the Father is a mystery. However, we are triune beings as well with a soul, spirit, and body.


    If Jesus is the image of a man, and we were made in the image of God, you put the pieces together.
    Still separate and distinct.
  12. Joined
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    04 Sep '14 12:13
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Still separate and distinct.
    My mind and body are separate and distinct as well.
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    04 Sep '14 12:221 edit
    More Messiah prophecies.

    Enoch 48 "At that hour, the Son of Man was given a name, in the presence of the Lord of Spirits, the Before-Time, even before the creation of the sun and moon, before the creation of the stars, he was given a name in the presence of the Lord of Spirits. HE will become the light of the Gentiles and he will become the hope of those who are sick in their hearts. All those who dwell upon the earth will fall and worship before him; they will glorify, bless, and sing the name of the Lord of Spirits. For this purpose he became the Chosen One; he was concealed in the presence of the Lord of Spirits prior to the creation of the world, for eternity. And he has revealed the wisdom of the Lord of Spirits to the righteous and holy ones, for he has preserved the portion of the righteous because they have hated and despised this world of oppression all its way of life and its habits in the name of the Lord of Spirits; and because they will be saved in his name and it is his good pleasure that they have life. In those days, the kings of the earth and the mighty landowners will be humiliated on account of the deeds of their hands. Therefore, the day of their misery and weariness, they will not be able to save themselves."

    Since Enoch was written in a pre-Christ time, I wonder how the Jews view this book?

    Anyone have an idea?
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    04 Sep '14 12:35
    This prophecy from Enoch is just for FMF.

    "My eyes saw there a deep valley with a wide mouth. And all those who dwell upon the earth, the sea, and the islands shall bring to it gifts, presents, and tributes; yet this deep valley shall not become full. They shall fulfill the criminal deeds of their hands and eat all the produce of crime which the sinners toil for. Sinners shall be destroyed from before the face of the Lord of Spirits--they shall perish eternally, standing before the face of his earth. So I saw all the angels of plague co-operating and preparing all the chains of Satan. And I asked the angel of peace, who was going with me, "For whom are they preparing these chains?" And he answered me, saying, "They are preparing these for the kings and the potentates of this earth in order that they may be destroyed thereby. After this, the Righteous and Elect Ones will reveal the house of his congregation. From that time, they shall not be hindered in the name of the Lord of Spirits. And these mountains will become flat like earth in the presence of his righteousness, and the hills will become like a fountain of water. And the righteous ones shall have rest from the oppression of sinners."
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    05 Sep '14 01:56
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I grew up with a staunch Christadelphian background. They actually believe that Jesus had no existence prior to his arrival on earth as the son of Mary. So when I presented my parents [and others] with that passage they simply shrugged and said "thats not the Holy Bible". I guess the JWs will do the same.

    That passage by the way also runs contrary to any ...[text shortened]... re obviously two separate and distinct entities with separate and distinct functions and duties.
    Christadelphian is a cult.

    http://www.christianlibrary.org.au/cel/documents/cults/04.html
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