1. Standard memberAgerg
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    In this thread I'm making the (charitable) assumption (for the sake of argument) that
    1) some sort of creator entity (a god) exists; and that
    2) the universe as it exists today would not be possible without its handiwork in some way, behind the scenes.

    Independently of any holy books (and to be fair, any postulated theories of the universe's origins on the part of science). What characteristics do you hold this god must necessarily have in order to bring this universe about? (and if they are extra to mine, please explain why they are absolutely necessary)

    I'll go first:

    It must have the means to facilitate the creation of at least one dynamic universe equipped with physical laws that govern how it changes - nothing more.
    I justify this via the premise that this universe (which is non-static) would not be here without the handiwork of some god (and hence I require something to facilitate its creation - not ruling out the possible creation of others), moreover though not ruling out any intervention - I do not actually require it must have the capability to interact further with what it creates.

    *Reveal Hidden Content
    Yet another
    edit - for any charge that my requirement changes can happen by way of physical laws is too extravagant - were it not the case that a change can happen without the intervention of some deity, then in some sense that itself would be a physical law of the universe (that it is resilient to change unless it is acted upon externally)
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    12 Jan '13 21:201 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    In this thread I'm making the (charitable) assumption (for the sake of argument) that
    1) some sort of creator entity (a god) exists; and that
    2) the universe as it exists today would not be possible without its handiwork in some way, behind the scenes.

    Independently of any holy books (and to be fair, any postulated theories of the universe's origins on sical law of the universe (that it is resilient to change unless it is acted upon externally)
    I suggest adding that it be able to will things into existence ex nihilo, that is, by a sheer act of will without any instrumentality or material that is external or "other" than it. Otherwise, there exists something that is independent of it. In terms of "means," the means cannot be independent of it.

    Willing is a conscious act, so the god needs to be conscious at least when it wills something.

    (Maybe willing is the means.)

    Another aspect of this is simply that it needs to exist at least when it wills. Does this imply there must be a time and place, where and when it exists? If so, did it create the space-time it occupies? edit: this would not be the physical space-time where we are, it is the space time where it is when it wills the physical universe to exist.
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    12 Jan '13 21:36
    Originally posted by Agerg
    In this thread I'm making the (charitable) assumption (for the sake of argument) that
    1) some sort of creator entity (a god) exists; and that
    2) the universe as it exists today would not be possible without its handiwork in some way, behind the scenes.

    Independently of any holy books (and to be fair, any postulated theories of the universe's origins on ...[text shortened]... sical law of the universe (that it is resilient to change unless it is acted upon externally)
    (The) "creator entity" is indefinable by creation.
  4. Standard memberAgerg
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    12 Jan '13 22:254 edits
    Originally posted by JS357
    I suggest adding that it be able to will things into existence ex nihilo, that is, by a sheer act of will without any instrumentality or material that is external or "other" than it. Otherwise, there exists something that is independent of it. In terms of "means," the means cannot be independent of it.

    Willing is a conscious act, so the god needs to be cons ...[text shortened]... where we are, it is the space time where it is when it wills the physical universe to exist.
    I suggest adding that it be able to will things into existence ex nihilo, that is, by a sheer act of will without any instrumentality or material that is external or "other" than it. Otherwise, there exists something that is independent of it. In terms of "means," the means cannot be independent of it.

    Willing is a conscious act, so the god needs to be conscious at least when it wills something.

    (Maybe willing [b]is
    the means.)[/b]
    I agree with this, except from the conscious willing requirement. Is it strictly necessary that there be any willing of anything involved? perhaps this creator entity (not necessarily unique) is bound to extra-dimensional laws for which given some particular state of that dimension(s), its response is, by some sort of "mechanical" nature, the setting in motion of creating a universe ex nihilo - without any conscious thought or purpose.

    Another aspect of this is simply that it needs to exist at least when it wills. Does this imply there must be a time and place, where and when it exists? If so, did it create the space-time it occupies? edit: this would not be the physical space-time where we are, it is the space time where it is when it wills the physical universe to exist.
    I have often pondered about this one (as a thought experiment of course) - indeed what even counts as time for this entity - i.e. how does it get things done? (as for 'where it lives', perhaps we can suppose the extra-dimensional realm within which it dwells has always existed - or there exists some chain of creator entities, that facilitate at least the creation of other dimensions that will house other creator entities - stopping at one entity (not necessarily capable of directly creating anything other than some set of dimensions that the next creator entity shall dwell in) for which its dimension of existence always existed).

    For now I make the following revision:

    It must have the means to facilitate the creation of at least one dynamic universe, ex nihilo equipped with at least one material thing & physical laws that govern how it, and its contents changes. Further it must exist in some sort of dimension disjoint from that which it creates - nothing more
  5. Standard memberAgerg
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    12 Jan '13 22:322 edits
    Originally posted by josephw
    (The) "creator entity" is indefinable by creation.
    Says who!? remember we are supposed to be thinking independently of any holy books. Explain why we cannot define a minimal set of characteristics some creator entity must have.
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    12 Jan '13 22:36
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]I suggest adding that it be able to will things into existence ex nihilo, that is, by a sheer act of will without any instrumentality or material that is external or "other" than it. Otherwise, there exists something that is independent of it. In terms of "means," the means cannot be independent of it.

    Willing is a conscious act, so the god needs to be c ...[text shortened]... st exist in some sort of dimension disjoint from that which it creates - nothing more
    [/b]
    OK I think I am reading something into the word "creator" that is anthropomorphizing, as -or words like"actor" and "doctor" imply a personal conscious agent. Whereas "actuator" and "alternator" can imply a mechanism operating according to its own "laws."

    Maybe there is less to be added to what you have said, than I would like. 😉
  7. Standard memberhakima
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    12 Jan '13 23:24
    God requires no characteristics...human attempts (including my first statement) to attach characteristics, attributes or definitions are limiting.

    The best I can offer in my own mind is this:

    God is
  8. Standard memberAgerg
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    12 Jan '13 23:465 edits
    Originally posted by hakima
    God requires no characteristics...human attempts (including my first statement) to attach characteristics, attributes or definitions are limiting.

    The best I can offer in my own mind is this:

    God is
    I'm not trying to attach to some god a complete set of characteristics just the least set of characteristics that would be required for a universe to exist given a premise that it had to exist via some sort of god. To put it another way I'm not entirely sure what are all the mechanical processes that take place in order for me to be able to get this response to render on your screen or viewing device but it's reasonable to say:

    required is
    1) some means to store and retrieve data state.
    2) some means to render imagery to a viewing device
    3) Some means to power what ever hardware facilitates (1) & (2)
    4) Some means to affect the state in (1) so that (2) happens in response to the data I or others provide
    Reveal Hidden Content
    and I\'m not going to go into to much further detail here


    On the other hand I don't require a computer, for whatever device I use to enter text I don't necessarily require a protective chassis, I don't require some audio device, I don't require a keyboard or even an emulation of one (I just need a way to send signals to the OS and accordingly the browser I'm using, consistent with keystrokes, for which the php script will output text to the forum database) etc...
  9. Standard memberhakima
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    13 Jan '13 00:54
    Originally posted by Agerg
    I'm not trying to attach to some god a complete set of characteristics just the least set of characteristics that would be required for a universe to exist given a premise that it had to exist via some sort of god. To put it another way I'm not entirely sure what are all the mechanical processes that take place in order for me to be able to get this response t ...[text shortened]... th keystrokes, for which the php script will output text to the forum database) etc...
    Ok, I think I understand what you are saying...but aren't all the requirements you list assuming the existence of the object (ie; in your example me or whomever views your post)--or in your original premise; the universe as far as humans understand it...and wouldn't one have to understand the entirety of the universe before one might adequately assign any characteristics to an original creator?

    I'm honestly not trying to argue...only trying to understand...and in the attempt, my little mind is completely blown and all I can come up with is..."I don't know" and that being the case can only affirm the existence of something larger than my own mind that does know even the minutest degree more (that being everyone else by virtue of their unique experiences)...and so am provided with another facet to my post...

    God is
    Thou art


    Namaste'

    Hakima
  10. Standard memberhakima
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    13 Jan '13 01:22
    ...so...I just read the following response (Agerg's) on the Pascal's Wager thread, and I'm intrigued by the possibilities presented here:

    "...I have no way to be confident it has any of the characteristics you and other Christians (or theists in general) suppose it might have. Perhaps some god that exists just doesn't give a damn either way about the things it creates (or allows to be created) - perhaps it isn't all powerful (why should it be? why can't it merely be sufficiently powerful enough to construct a universe!?)."

    I'm not sure I have a lot to add to this at the moment (not even sure about my ability to wrap my head around it in the future) but I'm interested in the ways my mind is trying to work all this out.
  11. Standard memberAgerg
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    13 Jan '13 02:192 edits
    Originally posted by hakima
    Ok, I think I understand what you are saying...but aren't all the requirements you list assuming the existence of the object (ie; in your example me or whomever views your post)--or in your original premise; the universe as far as humans understand it...and wouldn't one have to understand the entirety of the universe before one might adequately assign any cha am provided with another facet to my post...

    God is
    Thou art


    Namaste'

    Hakima
    Ok, I think I understand what you are saying...but aren't all the requirements you list assuming the existence of the object (ie; in your example me or whomever views your post)--or in your original premise; the universe as far as humans understand it...and wouldn't one have to understand the entirety of the universe before one might adequately assign any characteristics to an original creator?
    I don't think so; looking at it logically, if we suppose (from the premise) that the existence of our universe is dependent upon some sort of exterior creator then:

    1) we are forced to conclude (given the universe exists), at least one creator with the means to bring about universes existing is necessary (else how did this universe get here (again accepting the generous given on my part it had to be created by some god or other)).
    2) Then we get to JS357's point that we can't really have a universe from no universe being reasonable unless it can be created ex nihilo by some creator.
    3) Then we have to wonder what dimension it could operate in prior to our dimensions coming into existence - whatever they must be they'd be distinct from our own (trivially because ours didn't exist when it created them).

    Others might chime in and refine this set of attributes further - and these additions will be up for debate as to whether they're really necessary. But the important point is I'm assuming nothing about the universe or what its physical laws are in any non-trivial detail (perhaps our understanding of science is wrong anyway, and that all events and process we think we've explained are just fluky special cases of some physical system that in general behaves nothing like we expect!Reveal Hidden Content
    ok perhaps not!
    ) - I'm just trying to root out the logical necessities if we assume some god created this universe - anything else (whether it likes humans and what not) is conjecture (might be true, might not be true, no way of knowing either way).
  12. Standard memberhakima
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    13 Jan '13 03:08
    Originally posted by Agerg
    [b]Ok, I think I understand what you are saying...but aren't all the requirements you list assuming the existence of the object (ie; in your example me or whomever views your post)--or in your original premise; the universe as far as humans understand it...and wouldn't one have to understand the entirety of the universe before one might adequately assign any c ...[text shortened]... not) is conjecture (might be true, might not be true, no way of knowing either way).
    Thank you for taking the time to help me understand a little better what you are asking. I have no intelligent answers, but I'm following this with heightened interest. I hope others DO chime in.
  13. Subscribersonhouse
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    13 Jan '13 03:47
    Originally posted by josephw
    (The) "creator entity" is indefinable by creation.
    We are defining it by definition. Do you think you can do better than 'god is' or some other such platitude? We are saying mere humans can in fact come up with valid ideas as to what a god would have to be like to be a real god. Not the fake one made up by the Abrahamic religions.
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    13 Jan '13 04:44
    Originally posted by Agerg
    In this thread I'm making the (charitable) assumption (for the sake of argument) that
    1) some sort of creator entity (a god) exists; and that
    2) the universe as it exists today would not be possible without its handiwork in some way, behind the scenes.

    Independently of any holy books (and to be fair, any postulated theories of the universe's origins on ...[text shortened]... sical law of the universe (that it is resilient to change unless it is acted upon externally)
    He must have no restrictions on any level of his existance, power or knowledge.....
    If he lacked in anything he would not be a true God.
  15. Standard memberhakima
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    13 Jan '13 04:46
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    We are defining it by definition. Do you think you can do better than 'god is' or some other such platitude? We are saying mere humans can in fact come up with valid ideas as to what a god would have to be like to be a real god. Not the fake one made up by the Abrahamic religions.
    If there is no god, no definition could create a "real" god. They would all be fake.
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