1. Standard membersonship
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    12 Nov '14 21:10
    I will write walls of text about how the Canaanite conquest under Joshua should be viewed and applied in its relation to New Testament salvation.

    Thank God for the examples of battles of the Israelites against the Canaanites. The Christian needs to apply many principles from them to enter into NT salvation.

    The Christian should be thankful that we have a picture of profound truths quite relevant to living in union with the Son of God.
  2. SubscriberSuzianne
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    12 Nov '14 23:13
    Good, I'm eager to hear it.

    And to all the faithless atheist crybabies out there, "neener, neener!"

    And to jaywill, I'm sorry for interrupting your thread, yes, I'm trolling... a bit. Yeah, a bit. Please go on.
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    13 Nov '14 00:071 edit
    Originally posted by Suzianne
    Good, I'm eager to hear it.

    And to all the faithless atheist crybabies out there, "neener, neener!"

    And to jaywill, I'm sorry for interrupting your thread, yes, I'm trolling... a bit. Yeah, a bit. Please go on.
    The concept of "crossing Jordon" has traditionally been applied to dying or going to heaven. But some of us feel that the analogy doesn't fit.

    When the Israelites entered cross Jordon to enter into Canaan they had battles with the occupants to fight. This does not match going to heaven where no Christians expect any enemies to be there to fight.

    So the Good Land of Canaan should have another typology. And that should include the need for frighting, conquest, subduing and even extermination in some instances.

    So Canaan the Good Land, the Promised Land, must stand for something else to the Christian. And it must be [i]fought[/b] for to enjoy.

    What would that be?
  4. Standard membersonship
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    13 Nov '14 00:203 edits
    The Good Land of Canaan is a type of Christ thoroughly dispensed into and mingled with man. The good land across Jordan river is typology of the Christ who is all-inclusive, all-extensive, including everything God's people require and need to fulfill God's purpose.

    The land is not merely Christ alone but Christ thoroughly wrought into the churching people. That is something that the believers must fight the OLD MAN, the old fallen nature, to obtain.

    Being born again only brings us into the land. Since the land is Christ IN us, the land is occupied with many enemies of God's purpose. And with the leadership of Christ, the Christian's Captain of salvation, the good land can be taken. That is the ALL-inclusive Christ can be realized.

    The next few posts from me will establish the concept that the Good Land of Canaan from the New Testament persepective, is the all-inclusive and all extensive rich Christ. That is a "place" or a living Person as a "place" in which God's people have everything they need.

    As a hint, Jesus Christ is the Christians "Author" of "Captain of salvation" leading His people into glory.

    Hebrews 2:11

    English Standard Version
    For it was fitting that he, for whom and by whom all things exist, in bringing many sons to glory, should make the founder of their salvation perfect through suffering.

    New American Standard Bible
    For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

    King James Bible
    For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.


    This utterance refers back to Joshua the captain of "the army of Jehovah" leading the Hebrews in the conquest of the good land.

    The "glory" into which Christ as the Author or Captain of salvation leads the believers is the glorious expression of man thoroughly mingled with God in the New Testament salvation. That is the glorious expression of the uniting of God and man with the old man of the fallen Adam subdued and conquered.
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    13 Nov '14 00:342 edits
    The old man is occupied by many enemies of God's economy. Some can be considered "giants". Some can be considered huge obstacles to Christ completely gaining men and women.

    Some obstacles evoke our natural sympathies. Self pity for the old fallen nature stands in the way of conquest of the All-inclusive Christ.

    "Your eye shall not pity" was at some times commanded to the army of Joshua. And pity for many things of the old fallen nature can rob the Christian church of the all-inclusive Christ.

    When we think of the commands of Joshua to not spare or pity some of the opposing forces in Canaan, we have to think correspondingly to the NT commands -

    Romans 13:14 -

    King James 2000 Bible
    But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

    American King James Version
    But put you on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfill the lusts thereof.

    American Standard Version
    But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof .


    Put on Christ and make NO provision for the flesh. The flesh here stands for the whole fallen and Satanified nature inherited from Adam. It is not the meat of physical body. Here is means that which Adam fell into as the total degraded and polluted man alienated from God.

    The charge is to enjoy the new man filled with Christ and make no provision for the old man. That means no pity on it. That means through the Holy Spirit put him to death that Christ may reign within.

    The Lord seeks an "army" of believers in each locality diving into the enjoyment of Christ and making no provision for the fallen nature.

    This is something each believer does towards him or herself. The battle is within one's own Christian walk. It is strictness towards the self. It is not strictness to impose upon others. It is each believer putting on the Lord Jesus Christ as one would put on clothing. And each believer towards himself, towards herself, makes no provision for that old fallen man in Adam.
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    13 Nov '14 14:142 edits
    Further ground to believe that the Good Land of Canaan is a type of Christ is in the book of Colossians. There Christ is "the allotted portion of the saints" .

    "Giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you for a share of the allotted portion of the saints in the light." (Col. 1:12)

    This expression "a share of the allotted portion" refers to the distribution of a rich inheritance. And it certainly is reminiscent of the dividing up of the good land of Canaan to the twelve tribes.

    In Joshua 14:1 the allotment of the good land of Canaan was distributed to the Israelites for their inheritance.

    "And these are what the children of Israel received as inheritance in the land of Canaan, which Eleazer the priest and Joshua the son of Nun and the heads of the fathers' houses of the tribe of the children of Israel gave to them as inheritance." (Joshua 14:1)

    The Good Land, the Promised Land was divided up by portions and awarded to the tribes for their possession and enjoyment.

    Paul uses that imagery in Colossians. The Christians have been allotted a share of the extensive and all-inclusively rich Christ. He is the Promised Land of the new covenant believers - Christ Himself.

    The fighting of the enemies of Israel corresponds to the new covenant believers "fighting" through the old manner of living- the fallen man, into taking Christ as the new man. Piece by piece we must advance to inherit share allotted to the saved - Christ as everything to us.
  7. Standard membersonship
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    13 Nov '14 15:011 edit
    We who come to Christ, of course, have been use to living another way. That is by the fallen Adamic nature. When we believe in Christ and are regenerated, that old manner of life is still with us.

    We have to learn to live another way - by the power of the indwelling Jesus Christ. As the tribes under Joshua's leadership were often commanded to be ruthless in killing the Canaanites the Christians, towards themselves, also must be ruthless to allow the cross of Christ to terminate many old things.

    So Paul tells Christians - "If therefore you were raised together with Christ, seek the thngs which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God ... Put to death therefore your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and greediness, which is idolatry;

    Because of which things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience; In which you once walked, when you lived in these things." (See Colossians 3:1-7)


    Fornication - no pity.
    Uncleaness - no pity.
    Passion - do not spare.
    Evil desire - show no mercy.
    Greediness, which is idolatry - no sympathy.

    These are the "enemies" of the Christians enjoying their allotted portion of the rich Christ as the new humanity. And as the Yahweh sometimes had Joshua go in and not spare from extermination, the corresponding truth is that those in the new man must not spare these remnants of the corrupted humanity.

    Some of us are therefore thankful for the picture of the conquest of Canaan. We know the Bible is not telling us to physically go slay people. But towards ourselves, our eye shall have no pity on the old manner of corrupted life in US.

    Christ is the Christian's Promised Land. The remnant of fallen humanity must be swallowed up in the Spirit of Christ that indwells the believers, with their fighting cooperation.
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    13 Nov '14 16:46
    Joshua captured all these royal cities and all their kings and annihilated them with the sword, 18 as Moses the Lord’s servant had commanded. 11:13 But Israel did not burn any of the cities located on mounds, 19 except for Hazor; 20 it was the only one Joshua burned. 11:14 The Israelites plundered all the goods of these cities and the cattle, but they totally destroyed all the people 21 and allowed no one who breathed to live.
  9. Standard membersonship
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    15 Nov '14 01:495 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Joshua captured all these royal cities and all their kings and annihilated them with the sword, 18 as Moses the Lord’s servant had commanded. 11:13 But Israel did not burn any of the cities located on mounds, 19 except for Hazor; 20 it was the only one Joshua burned. 11:14 The Israelites plundered all the goods of these cities and the cattle, but they totally destroyed all the people 21 and allowed no one who breathed to live.
    What struck me was the ruthlessness of God's command. The New Testament portrays Christ as the "Good Land" to be conquered and apportioned to His people.

    It is significant that it is Colossians which makes the allotment allegory because Christ in Colossians is so vast.
    He is the image of the invisible God (1:15)
    He is the Firstborn of all creation too (1:15).
    In Him all was created - seen, unseen, in heaven and on earth (1:16)
    He's the source of the structure of all authority and deputy authority (1:16).
    He is before things and all things cohere in Him (1:17).

    It is no wonder that absoluteness and ruthlessness to all the aspects of the fallen nature must be conquered to inherit this Christ. He is everything men and women need.

    He is the Head of the entity, "the Body" which is infused with His life (1:18)
    He is therefore a new beginning (1:18).
    He is the Firstborn not only of creation but of the dead (1:19).

    All the "fullness" was "pleased" to dwell in Christ (1:19).
    He is the source of reconciliation of all things to God (1:20).
    He has the preeminence in all things (1:18) or "the first place in all things".

    The antitype of the Promised Land is therefore Jesus Christ as the all-inclusive God-man dispensed into His redeemed people.

    This One is able to eventually present everyone who believes into Him before Him "holy and without blemish and without reproach" (1:22)

    The church is rooted and grounded in Him like a "soil" or plot of land for growing God in man. (1:23).

    In Him we can rejoice even in our sufferings. We do not rejoice because of suffering. But we rejoice in Him because He is such a rich supply. (1:24)

    The mystery hidden from ages and generations has now been manifested - "which is Christ in you the hope of glory" (1:27) . The indwelling Christ is the seed which cannot but blossom into the full splendor the mingling of divinity and humanity - the "glory" - the divinization of humanity.

    Paul and his co-apostles there for labor and struggle to present every man "full-grown in Christ" (1:28) proving that it is a matter of a GROWING Christ, a process of Christ more and more dispensed into man.

    Again, " ... in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily" (2:9).


    All the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in Christ (Col. 2:3).

    The believers must realize they are "rooted and built up in Him" (2:7)

    "Rooted" denotes an organic relationship drawing up all the riches of Christ as life into the plant. "Built up" denotes this living entity is also a "building" or holy living temple.

    Rooted and grounded and rooted and built up in this Christ, is the believers' destiny.

    It was in the good land of Canaan the Israelites eventually built the temple of God as kind of capital of God's dwelling place on the earth. The type is now realized in the building up of local churches and finally the New Jerusalem as the eternal temple of God dwelling in man and man in God.

    The point of this post is that Colossians goes so far to portray Christ like an all-inclusive, expansive and rich land containing all that is needed for man to fulfill God's eternal purpose and provide for man's eternal enjoyment.

    This is the fight really worth fighting - to thoroughly inherit such a Christ.
  10. Standard membersonship
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    15 Nov '14 02:071 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    Joshua captured all these royal cities and all their kings and annihilated them with the sword,


    And the Christians must put to death the practices of the fallen body based upon the realization that the old man has been crucified and buried with Christ.

    "What then shall we say? Should we continue to sin that grace may abound? Absolutely not! We who have died to sin, how shall we still live in it.

    Or are you ignorant that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?" (Rom. 6:1-3)


    Paul is urging the believers to not be ignorant but grasp the revelation - Christ's death is not only redemptive in the shedding of His blood for forgiveness. Christ's death is terminating as well. By faith we have to stand on the fact that all the old fallen man has been terminated in Christ's death. We should not believe our failures. We must believe God's words and the facts will be enjoyed by the faith that draws up this Person into our soul.

    "We have been buried with Him through baptism into His death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so also we might walk in newness of life.

    For if we have grown together with Him in the likeness of His death, indeed we will also be in the likeness of His resurrection." (vs.4,5)


    It is the applying ruthlessly the death of Christ, from item to item as God reveals our need that we grow with Him in the likeness of His death. It is a matter of growing. It is a matter of expanding our union with Christ by not being ignorant. We realize His death is at our disposal to slay, to slaughter, to terminate the enemies of the old nature.

    The conquest of Canaan has its antitype in the New Testament church fighting for the expansion and deepening of Christ in the believers, killing off the old way of living and germinating the living in the new man.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    15 Nov '14 09:03
    John Piper on "All the Treasures of Wisdom and Knowledge" being in Christ.
    http://www.desiringgod.org/articles/in-him-are-hid-all-the-treasures-of-wisdom-and-knowledge

    (copied with permission - my bolding )

    One reason to admire and trust Jesus above all other persons is that he knows more than anyone else. He knows all people thoroughly, their hearts and their thoughts. "He knew all men" (John 2:24). "You, Lord, . . . know the hearts of all men" (Acts 1:24). "And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, 'Why are you thinking evil in your hearts?'" (Matthew 9:4). There is no one who perplexes Jesus. No thought or action is unintelligible to him. He knows its origin and end. The most convoluted psychotic and the most abstruse genius are open and laid bare to his understanding. He understands every motion of their minds.

    Jesus not only knows all people thoroughly as they were and are today, he also knows what people will think and do tomorrow. He knows all things that will come to pass. "Jesus, [knew] all the things that were coming upon Him" (John 18:4). On the basis of this knowledge, he foretold numerous things that his friends and enemies would do. "[Jesus said] 'There are some of you who do not believe.' For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him" (John 6:64). "From now on," he said, "I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am" (John 13:19). The reason he foretold these things, he explains, is so that we might know that "he is" - is what? That he is the divine Son of God. "I am" is the name for God in Exodus 3:14 and the designation of deity in Isaiah 43:10. Jesus knows all that will come to pass, and, to help our faith, he says, "Behold, I have told you in advance" (Matthew 24:25).

    Jesus simply knows all things. Thus his disciples said, truly, "Now we know that You know all things, and have no need for anyone to question You; by this we believe that You came from God" (John 16:30). The extent of Jesus' knowledge was a compelling warrant for faith in his divine origin. At the end of his time on earth Jesus pressed Peter, "'Simon, son of John, do you love Me?' Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, 'Do you love Me?' And he said to Him, 'Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You' (John 21:17). Peter did not conclude from Jesus' knowledge of his heart that he knew all things; rather he concluded from the omniscience of Jesus that he knew his heart. "You know all things," is a general and unqualified statement that John's gospel presses on our minds.

    The greatest thing that can be said of Jesus' knowledge is that he knows God perfectly. We know God partially and imperfectly. Jesus knows him like no other being knows him. He knows him the way an omniscient Person knows himself. "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him" (Matthew 11:27). No one but Jesus knows the Father immediately, completely and perfectly. Our knowledge of the Father depends wholly on Jesus' gracious revelation; it is derivative and partial and imperfect.

    Nothing greater can be said about the knowledge of Jesus than that he knows God perfectly. All reality outside God is parochial compared to the infinite Reality that God is. What God has made is like a toy compared to the complexity and depth of what God is. All the sciences that scratch the surface of the created universe are the mere ABCs compared to Christ's exhaustive knowledge of the created universe. And this knowledge of the created universe is as a dewdrop on a blade of grass compared to the ocean of knowledge that Jesus has of the Being of God himself. God is infinite. The universe is finite. Knowledge of the infinite is infinite. Therefore to know God, as Jesus knows God, is to have infinite knowledge.

    Therefore let us bow down and worship Jesus Christ. If we are impressed with the scholarship of man and the achievements of scientific knowledge, then let us not play the fool by trumpeting a tiny chirp and ignoring the thunder clap of omniscience. Jesus alone is worthy of our highest admiration. Jesus alone is worthy of our trust. He can show us the Father (Matthew 11:27). He can give us irresistible wisdom (Luke 21:15). He can see how to make all things work together for our good (Romans 8:28). None of his judgments about anything is ever mistaken (John 8:16). He teaches the way of God with infallible truthfulness (Matthew 22:16). Trust him. Admire him. Follow him.
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    15 Nov '14 12:25
    Originally posted by sonship
    Joshua captured all these royal cities and all their kings and annihilated them with the sword,


    And the Christians must put to death the practices of the fallen body based upon the realization that the old man has been crucified and buried with Christ.

    [b]"What then shall we say? Should we continue to sin that grace may abound? Abs ...[text shortened]... t in the believers, killing off the old way of living and germinating the living in the new man.
    yes, nobody says the bible didn't got better.

    the genocide of the canaanites doesn't get any less evil just because jesus showed a better, less abominable (this epithet is not strong enough) way.

    i have an explanation: the bible is lying when it says the canaanites were slaughtered.
    your explanation: god got bored with making his children kill off a whole group of his children and said enough?
  13. Standard membersonship
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    15 Nov '14 13:465 edits
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    yes, nobody says the bible didn't got better.


    The revelation is progressive.
    Romans doesn't follow Genesis.
    We need some pictures for God's new covenant economy.

    Just as it seems unbelievable to us that the old fallen nature could be so condemned by God to call for such a drastic dealing, so also we tend not to believe that these societies were so bad.

    "Things just could not be that bad" is , I think, the typical response of man to God judging.


    the genocide of the canaanites doesn't get any less evil just because jesus showed a better, less abominable (this epithet is not strong enough) way.


    In other discussions I have gone through various Canaanite issues.
    This thread will not morph into those usual arguments.

    The NT application and the OT model both reveal that we underestimate just how awful the condition of man apart from God can be so low.



    i have an explanation: the bible is lying when it says the canaanites were slaughtered.
    your explanation: god got bored with making his children kill off a whole group of his children and said enough?


    In other threads in the past I showed how the language of Joshua was typical of the military bravado of that time. IE "We left nothing breathing" and such expressions more go of evidence that the writer was a military man speaking the typical military speak of those times.

    Further reading of the book and of the rest of the Old Testament proves that he could not have literally wiped out every single Amalekite because they show up latter.

    As in the case of Noah's flood we sinners simply are naive as to who poisoned a society could be. I hope we do not witness this degree of degradation in our lifetime.

    Everything had to go, at least in the temporal scheme of things.

    Jesus indicated that in some future judgment, men of Sodom would fare better than some other latter societies which did not suffer such a dramatic overthrow at their times.

    Matthew 10:15

    New American Standard Bible
    "Truly I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city.

    International Standard Version
    I tell all of you with certainty, it will be more bearable for the region of Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town!"


    Matthew 11:24


    King James Bible
    But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

    Holman Christian Standard Bible
    But I tell you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom on the day of judgment than for you."

    God knows what He is doing of course.
    And the temporal judgments of some OT societies may not indicate how they fare in the eternal scheme.

    The example of drastic dealings was needed otherwise self pity and sparing our fallen self would impede the people of God in fulfiling His gaining of them entirely.

    "They overcame him [the devil] ... because.. they loved not their soul life even unto death." (See Rev. 12:10-11)

    Self sparring, self love, self pity, can be Satan's devices to oppose the will of God.

    Most of the revulsion against the Canaanite conquest is motivated by this innate sense of self pity which can naively underestimate the deep inroads of corruption can occupy the man created for God.
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    15 Nov '14 14:281 edit
    Originally posted by sonship
    yes, nobody says the bible didn't got better.


    The revelation is progressive.
    Romans doesn't follow Genesis.
    We need some pictures for God's new covenant economy.

    Just as it seems unbelievable to us that the old fallen nature could be so condemned by God to call for such a drastic dealing, so also we tend not to believe that ...[text shortened]... ich can naively underestimate the deep inroads of corruption can occupy the man created for God.
    genocide is evil.

    how are you still not getting this?

    there are no justifications, no "let's look at this from a different angle"

    genocide is evil and those who engage in it are evil.
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    15 Nov '14 15:011 edit
    Originally posted by Zahlanzi
    genocide is evil.

    how are you still not getting this?

    there are no justifications, no "let's look at this from a different angle"

    genocide is evil and those who engage in it are evil.
    In this thread I am discussing mainly the New Testament parallel to the conquest of the Good Land. There have been no discussions on this ever here. There have been plenty on arguing about the battles over the condemned societies of Canaan.

    That is very important to those wanting to understand the New Testament economy.

    I would feel distracted from my OP if I went off on yet another debate examining all the matters regarding the Canaan conquest.
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