Spirituality
23 Jul 22
@divegeester saidwhy doesn’t everyone in world agree with you?
If it is universally objective to all observers, and you think you have it, then why doesn’t everyone in world agree with you?
Because, if we are talking about Spirituality Forum stuff, they are subjective "truths" [convictions, theories, beliefs, opinions] and not "objective" ones.
23 Jul 22
@divegeester saidWe look through a glass darkly, we see what is there and if we put an incorrect
If it is universally objective to all observers, and you think you have it, then why doesn’t everyone in world agree with you?
spin on the things we look at we are in error, which is why we need to check
what we say with more than what sounds good to us at the time.
23 Jul 22
@kellyjay saidBut we can but speculate.
We look through a glass darkly, we see what is there and if we put an incorrect
spin on the things we look at we are in error, which is why we need to check
what we say with more than what sounds good to us at the time.
And the result lies in the realm of subjectivity and aspiration.
23 Jul 22
@divegeester saidBecause humans are subjects (with points of view and value systems), not objects (like stones). Any truth which is objective applies only to objects (stones), not to persons (with points of view and value systems). Don’t try to refute this obvious truth by claiming it is self-refutingly objective; that is mere sophistry, due to limits of language not the reality behind the mere words.
If it is universally objective to all observers, and you think you have it, then why doesn’t everyone in world agree with you?
24 Jul 22
@moonbus saidWe think, therefore we exist.
Because humans are subjects (with points of view and value systems), not objects (like stones). Any truth which is objective applies only to objects (stones), not to persons (with points of view and value systems). Don’t try to refute this obvious truth by claiming it is self-refutingly objective; that is mere sophistry, due to limits of language not the reality behind the mere words.
This is an existential universal objective truth about persons, not stones.
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24 Jul 22
@divegeester saidDo you expect each potential respondent to interview everyone in the world and present their findings?
If it is universally objective to all observers, and you think you have it, then why doesn’t everyone in world agree with you?
@divegeester saidI think my cousin in a coma exists but if he doesn't think so too, then does he?
We think, therefore we exist.
This is an existential universal objective truth about persons, not stones.
24 Jul 22
@fmf saidAnd no if one thought about him for a moment would he stop existing at that time? Clearly our thoughts about an object doesn’t affect the object one way or another, universal truths remain even if we oppose them or accept them, even if we are completely unaware of them.
I think my cousin in a coma exists but if he doesn't think so too, then does he?
24 Jul 22
@kellyjay saidBut when it comes to things of a supernatural nature or things "we are completely unaware of" or where there is a lack of evidence that they actually exist ~ other than in our beliefs and thoughts ~ we cannot make objective claims about them.
Clearly our thoughts about an object doesn’t affect the object one way or another, universal truths remain even if we oppose them or accept them, even if we are completely unaware of them.
People can insist - as you do - that their subjective beliefs are "universal truths" until the cows come home, but it does not alter the fact that these assertions are subjective.
24 Jul 22
@fmf saidWhen it comes to your version of what is supernatural you can make up the rules
But when it comes to things of a supernatural nature or things "we are completely unaware of" or where there is a lack of evidence that they actually exist ~ other than in our beliefs and thoughts ~ we cannot make objective claims about them.
People can insist - as you do - that their subjective beliefs are "universal truths" until the cows come home, but it does not alter the fact that these assertions are subjective.
any way you want, it is, after all, your opinion.
24 Jul 22
@kellyjay saidNo, KellyJay. Blimey. Have you not read or understood anything I have said to you over the last ten years?
When it comes to your version of what is supernatural you can make up the rules
any way you want, it is, after all, your opinion.
The "rules", as you put it, are the same for BOTH you and me.
I too can only speculate about supernatural matters. I too can only offer subjective perspectives. Same as you.
Gosh. Have you really not comprehended the meaning of what I've been saying all this time?