1. Joined
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    05 Dec '06 22:27
    Check this:

    Is Jesus Christ the only saviour:

    http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.html
  2. Joined
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    05 Dec '06 22:59
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Check this:

    Is Jesus Christ the only saviour:

    http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.html
    With so many proported "Messiahs" it is strange how the prophecies of the Old Testament only seems to concern itself with one.

    BTW the web site with the word "infidels" is a little bit of a giveaway as to the origin of the web site.
  3. Standard memberDeathyx
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    06 Dec '06 05:56
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Check this:

    Is Jesus Christ the only saviour:

    http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/kersey_graves/16/index.html
    you = 🙄
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    06 Dec '06 07:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    With so many proported "Messiahs" it is strange how the prophecies of the Old Testament only seems to concern itself with one.
    Even stranger that most Jews consider that those prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.
  5. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    06 Dec '06 21:12
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Even stranger that most Jews consider that those prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.
    and then there's me, who doesnt consider anything in the OT valid.
  6. Joined
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    07 Dec '06 12:064 edits
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Even stranger that most Jews consider that those prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.
    Indeed. The Christian, however, believes that he is returning to fulfill the rest of those prophecies. My only point in saying what I did is to point out that the Bible points to ONE Messiah. What Islam attempts to do and, in fact, must do, is to try and dilute the person of Christ down into nothing more than a mere prophet because that is all they give him credit for as being. This, however, is problematic when he admittingly says he is THE Messhiah. He is not A Messiah or one of many, rather, he is THE Messhiah. The only way to feel comfortable with such a statement is to dilute the meaning of the term Messiah down as meaning the same as a prophet. There are many prophets in the Bible but only one Messiah. In fact, we are told that many will come after Christ has come declaring that they are the Messiah but to not recieve them. This is what is and has been happening as pointed out by the web site in question. I have one quesion for Islam if they claim Christ is a Messiah, if he is the Messiah, what is he the Messiah of? What did he do to attain the position of Messiah? What did he save us from? Why was he singled out as being referred to as the "anointed one"? In short, what was special about the Christ of the Bible that gives him such exclusivisity?

    The problem for Jews is if Christ is not the Messiah, why then does he claim to be? I would think this to be a high offense to claim an untruth of such magnitude. If he claimed then to be a prophet, this would make him a false prophet. Mosaic law has a history of being very harsh on such false prophets and, in fact, it could be punishable with death. From a Jewish perspective we could then refer to Christ as a false prophet. However, the problem then becomes how does one villify someone such as Christ who is universally seen as good?
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    07 Dec '06 16:112 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Indeed. The Christian, however, believes that he is returning to fulfill the rest of those prophecies. My only point in saying what I did is to point out that the Bible points to ONE Messiah. What Islam attempts to do and, in fact, must do, is to try and dilute the person of Christ down into nothing more than a mere prophet because that is all they give hi blem then becomes how does one villify someone such as Christ who is universally seen as good?
    Whodey, as you can see, the story of Jesus Christ as a saviour is not the only one. So that make me belive it copied from those older stories.

    This has nothing to do with being Messiah.

    According to OT and your belives is the Messiah GOD.

    Note: 1- Jesus Christ never claim he is Messiah, he claimed he is a prophet, and he said he is a prophet and man. And he never said he is Messiah.

    2- Jewish claim that you Christians has modified the OT to add prophesies for your Jesus. The OT is their book and they know it better than you.
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    07 Dec '06 18:22
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    Note: 1- Jesus Christ never claim he is Messiah, he claimed he is a prophet, and he said he is a prophet and man. And he never said he is Messiah.
    Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus saying, "Answer you nothing? What is it which these witnesses against you? But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high preist asked him, and said to him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed"? And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven" Then the high priest rent his clothes and said, "What need we any further witnesses? You have heard the blasphemy what do you think?" And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.

    John 4:25 The woman said to him, I know that Messias comes, which is called Christ; when he is come, he will tell us of all things. Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he."
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    07 Dec '06 18:35
    Originally posted by whodey
    Mark 14:60 And the high priest stood up in the midst, and asked Jesus saying, "Answer you nothing? What is it which these witnesses against you? But he held his peace, and answered nothing. Again the high preist asked him, and said to him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed"? And Jesus said, "I am, and you will see the Son of Man sitting on the ...[text shortened]... is come, he will tell us of all things. Jesus said to her, I that speak to you am he."
    The first thing doesn't say much.

    The second one go read this:

    "John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."

    So it simply say they found the Christ.

    And you didn't answer my question about the Messia. The concept is not clear to me what exactly you mean.

    What the attributes of the Messia according to the OT.
  10. Joined
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    07 Dec '06 18:42
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    The first thing doesn't say much.

    The second one go read this:

    "John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ."

    So it simply say they found the Christ.

    And you didn't answer my question about the Messia. The concept is not clear to me what exactly you mean.

    What the attributes of the Messia according to the OT.
    I gave you John 4:25, not John 1:41. In John 4:25 Christ claims to be the Messiah by his own admission. How does one explain this away I wonder?
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    07 Dec '06 18:49
    Originally posted by whodey
    I gave you John 4:25, not John 1:41. In John 4:25 Christ claims to be the Messiah by his own admission. How does one explain this away I wonder?
    In John 1:41 they interpreted Messiah to be Christ that is what I mean.

    Any way you asked me if I belive that Jesus Christ is the Messiah or not,

    And I asked you to explain what you mean by Messiah. But I will understand from the Jewish belive of the Messiah.

    In Islam we don't have a Messiah in the same concept. As I told before we belive the Jesus is a prophet and he came to Jewish to return them back to GOD way and correct what the modified in the Law.

    But we also belive that he will come back one day. And he will break the Cross as pray with Muslims as they do.

    But that doen't change the fact that he is a man.
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    07 Dec '06 18:593 edits
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    So it simply say they found the Christ.

    And you didn't answer my question about the Messia. The concept is not clear to me what exactly you mean.

    What the attributes of the Messia according to the OT.[/b]
    In Judism the Messiah is seen as the ONE who will liberate the Jewish people and who will bring ultimate peace on earth. Jews often refer to the Messiah as the one who will be the "liberator" of the Jewish people and not the "savior" of the Jewish people for obvious reasons. They do not refer to him as their savior in order to distance themselves from the theology of the Christian Jesus.

    The term Christ in the Greek is Christos and refers to the "annointed one" and is a literal translation of "messiah". It is used in the Greek Septuagint version of the Bible, and is derived from the Greek verb that means to "anoint in consecration" (Liddell & Scott Greek-English Lexicon)

    The Septuagint, an ancient Jewish translation of the Old Testament into Greek, translates all 39 instances of the word Messiah as Christos. There are some 300 prophecies in the Old Testament that refer to the Messiah. In fact, here is one such prophesy in Daniel 7:13.

    "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a Son of Man, coming with clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and power; all peoples, nations, and men of every language worshipped him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."

    So is the Son of Man to be worshipped if he is not God? Also, if Jesus be the Christ or anointed one, why the distinction of being the anointed one? What did he liberate that sets him apart from prophets such as John the Baptist? Why did John the Baptist say he was there to point the way to the Messiah? Was he also not a prophet like Jesus? Why did John the Baptist say that he was not worthy to Baptize Jesus?
  13. Joined
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    07 Dec '06 19:09
    Originally posted by whodey
    In Judism the Messiah is seen as the ONE who will liberate the Jewish people and who will bring ultimate peace on earth. Jews often refer to the Messiah as the one who will be the "liberator" of the Jewish people and not the "savior" of the Jewish people for obvious reasons. They do not refer to him as their savior in order to distance themselves from the t ...[text shortened]... will never be destroyed."

    So is the Son of Man to be worshipped if he is not God?
    So they belive he is a man and he is not a saviour. That is what they understand from their OT and they didn't claim he will be GOD.

    How come then you as Christians understand that from the OT?
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    07 Dec '06 19:15
    Originally posted by ahosyney
    So they belive he is a man and he is not a saviour. That is what they understand from their OT and they didn't claim he will be GOD.

    How come then you as Christians understand that from the OT?
    It is apparent to me that Daniel sees the Son of Man as God. Otherwise why does eveyone worship him? Is it not written that we are to only worship the Lord our God and only serve him? It is also apparent to me that they viewed Christ as blashpeming by making himself out to be the Messiah as I pointed out in Mark 14:60. Therefore what the Jews believe today is of little consequence to me. They can either believe there religious texts, or create new ones.
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    07 Dec '06 19:16
    "Messiah" just means "anointed one".
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