The Pope and Sex

Originally posted by Conrau K
Galvo, is there any significance to these passages? Let me inform you that posters on this forum generally observe the protocol of explaining any verses they might quote from Scripture. This is a very basic courtesy. I suggest you do likewise. If you have a point to make, then you ought to explain it.

I think your comments about Catholic spirituality ar ...[text shortened]... the incidence of abuse which is so controversial rather than the cover-ups associated with it.

I would hope that one with spritual insite and a spiritually trained conscience would see what these scriptures are saying in rergards to this subject. But maybe not...

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
It is important to remember that, concerning clerical abuse, it is not so much the incidence of abuse which is so controversial rather than the cover-ups associated with it.

No they are both equally abhorrent, anything else is an attempt to diminish responsibility!

No they are both equally abhorrent, anything else is an attempt to diminish responsibility!

You really are a pest. Does it sound like I am justifying abuse? Does it sound like I am trying to diminish responsibility? Again, I urge you to read the entirety of my post. What I said is that evidence indicates that Catholic priests are not more likely to abuse than clergy of other denominations. In fact, only last year there was a report that three insurance companies deal with about 300 cases a year in regards to Protestant ministers:

http://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2007/06/18/80877.htm

What makes the Catholic Church worse is not the number of abuses but the way the Catholic Church has operated secretively. Read carefully, I am not saying that a cover-up is worse than abuse nor am I diminishing any responsibility (it should be clearly apparent that I believe in greater responsibility.)

Originally posted by galveston75
I would hope that one with spritual insite and a spiritually trained conscience would see what these scriptures are saying in rergards to this subject. But maybe not...

I have not read these verses. I do not intend to look these up until you explain what your point is. Your behaviour is totally discourteous. On this forum, posters will refer to numerous verses from Scripture. It is simply inconvenient for readers to have look these lines up and then try to figure out the point of the poster. If you do not want to be totally ignored by me and by everyone else on this forum, I suggest that when you cite Scripture you outline your point and provide some explanation of the verses. But, alas, this post has reached that mysterious length at which you and Robbie are unable to continue reading and comprehending at the same time.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I both read it and dismissed it as an attempt, which i still think it is, at mitigation. Yes i may have been guilty of a little sensationalising never the less, citing a catholic news source as a 'balanced', point of view was hardly anything less than acceptable, and now look, further attempts have been made to force mitigation with supporters calli ...[text shortened]... a 'conspiracy', to undermine the church. A little honesty one thinks is all that is needed.

I don't think you quite understand the point. Let me outline it for you:

-- A priest, Hullerman, was sent to the diocese of Munich to receive psychiatric treatment.

-- Archbishop Ratzinger approved his move to the diocese but required him to refrain from ministry.

-- The priest was subsequently reinstated by the vicar-general, apparently without the knowledge of Archbishop Ratzinger.

Now I am arguing that there was an administrative oversight in this case. I am not saying that the global issue of sexual abuse was an administrative oversight. I really hope you can appreciate the difference here.

citing a catholic news source as a 'balanced', point of view was hardly anything less than acceptable,

Firstly, the article I cited did not concern the Hullerman case. Please follow the discussion.

Secondly, Galvo himself first cited the Catholic News Reporter. I only referred him to another article on that same paper.

Thirdly, the Catholic News Reporter can hardly be called biased given that the editorial calls for Benedict to disclose his activities and suggests he has lost all moral credibility. Anyway, anyone who knows about the NCR also knows that this paper is notorious for its dissent (one of its major columnists is an outspoken supporter of women priests.)

Fourthly John Allen is a trustworthy journalist. His comments were widely reported, even appearing in major newspapers in my country, Australia. I called his article 'balanced' mainly, however, because he acknowledges both that Pope Benedict achieved some positive things and that he 'was not exemplary'. If you had taken the time to read the article, you might have noticed.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]No they are both equally abhorrent, anything else is an attempt to diminish responsibility!

You really are a pest. Does it sound like I am justifying abuse? Does it sound like I am trying to diminish responsibility? Again, I urge you to read the entirety of my post. What I said is that evidence indicates that Catholic priests are not more likely t ...[text shortened]... responsibility (it should be clearly apparent that I believe in greater responsibility.)[/b]

oh Conrau, if the truth be known, i am only stirring with my large spoon!

I think your point in attacking the Catholics is pointless. 🙂 G75 I can dig up just as much trash on the JW's molesting little kids as on the Catholics. I think the issue should be how to stop it! Organizations/Religious groups hiding and not cooperating with the authorities when a known molester is among their ranks it the sin!!


Manny

Originally posted by Conrau K
I have not read these verses. I do not intend to look these up until you explain what your point is. Your behaviour is totally discourteous. On this forum, posters will refer to numerous verses from Scripture. It is simply inconvenient for readers to have look these lines up and then try to figure out the point of the poster. If you do not want to be totall ...[text shortened]... ength at which you and Robbie are unable to continue reading and comprehending at the same time.

Comprehend? That's funny coming from a Catholic. And if one cannot take the moment needed to look up scriptures in your own bible, then one must be afraid of what they may see. But then again the truth does hurt.

Originally posted by menace71
I think your point in attacking the Catholics is pointless. 🙂 G75 I can dig up just as much trash on the JW's molesting little kids as on the Catholics. I think the issue should be how to stop it! Organizations/Religious groups hiding and not cooperating with the authorities when a known molester is among their ranks it the sin!!


Manny

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_child_sex_abuse

Not even close my friend. But I do agree that it needs to be STOPPED and not hidden.

Originally posted by galveston75
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses_and_child_sex_abuse

Not even close my friend. But I do agree that it needs to be STOPPED and not hidden.

In a press release dated November 21, 2007, Jehovah's Witnesses' Office of Public Information stated: "In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations … During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States; In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts."

Well I'm personaly tired of hearing about it and reading about it. It's disgusting, pervered and demonic. I'm glad Jehovah will make ones such as this reap what they've sown.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well I'm personaly tired of hearing about it and reading about it. It's disgusting, pervered and demonic. I'm glad Jehovah will make ones such as this reap what they've sown.

i know, its well horrible. Indeed God is not one to be mocked!

Originally posted by galveston75
Comprehend? That's funny coming from a Catholic. And if one cannot take the moment needed to look up scriptures in your own bible, then one must be afraid of what they may see. But then again the truth does hurt.

I don't know why you attack the intelligence of Catholics. Anyway, I am not afraid of looking in the Bible. Currently I am reading an interlinear version of the Bible, presented in Latin and Greek. So don't lecture me about the Bible. All I am asking is that you yourself present the quotes (because we may be using different translations, which is very likely given your religious allegiance) and that you explain what point you are making.

I am happy to read Scripture and figure out its meaning; I am not happy to waste my time figuring out what point you are making.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't know why you attack the intelligence of Catholics. Anyway, I am not afraid of looking in the Bible. Currently I am reading an interlinear version of the Bible, presented in Latin and Greek. So don't lecture me about the Bible. All I am asking is that you yourself present the quotes (because we may be using different translations, which is very likel ...[text shortened]... igure out its meaning; I am not happy to waste my time figuring out what point you are making.

if you looked up the cited scriptures would it not be apparent what point Glavo was making? in fact in the time it has taken to post all your aversion to doing so, you could have looked up the verses and discerned what the point was.

Originally posted by Conrau K
I don't know why you attack the intelligence of Catholics. Anyway, I am not afraid of looking in the Bible. Currently I am reading an interlinear version of the Bible, presented in Latin and Greek. So don't lecture me about the Bible. All I am asking is that you yourself present the quotes (because we may be using different translations, which is very likel ...[text shortened]... igure out its meaning; I am not happy to waste my time figuring out what point you are making.

I'm not attacking the intelligence of anyone. But I know your using a different Bible then mine, even though in reality the truth is in all Bibles.
But as Robbie said you could have looked up the scriptures long ago. It just seems to me if you were really interested in them you would have used your Bible to see...
And what does intelligence have to do with the bad that's been going on for so long in the Catholic church? It would seem that LOVE for our fellow man, for our Brothers in the faith and caring for the flock in an upright and pure way is what should be the utmost importance here.
Sure there's bad in every aspect of life in the wicked world we are in, but it seems that as a whole over the decades that this has been covered up all the way to the top. And it seems that it has not been taken seriously by your Fathers and from what I can read from your comments not by you either. How completely upset and mad you should be at this and maybe you are......but it's not showing.
So my question to you is if the Catholic church were really with God's favor and blessings, why is this happening?

Originally posted by galveston75
I'm not attacking the intelligence of anyone. But I know your using a different Bible then mine, even though in reality the truth is in all Bibles.
But as Robbie said you could have looked up the scriptures long ago. It just seems to me if you were really interested in them you would have used your Bible to see...
And what does intelligence have to d ...[text shortened]... s if the Catholic church were really with God's favor and blessings, why is this happening?

Ok. I have looked up these Scripture passages. As I predicted, I do not understand what your point is and how it relates to our present discussion. This is why, as a courtesy, everyone else will clearly explain the Scripture rather than just spew out seemingly random quotes.

without affection, without peace, slanderers, incontinent, unmerciful, without kindness, 4 traitors, stubborn, puffed up, and lovers of pleasure more than of God: 5 Having an appearance indeed of godliness but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid.
2Tim 3:3,5.

Therefore, let us not sleep, as others do: but let us watch, and be sober. 7 For they that sleep, sleep in the night; and they that are drunk, are drunk in the night. 8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, having on the breast plate of faith and charity and, for a helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God has not appointed us unto wrath: but unto the purchasing of salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us: that, whether we watch or sleep, we may live together with him. 11 For which cause comfort one another and edify one another, as you also do.
1Thes 5:6-11.

Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh: not serving to the eye, as pleasing men: but in simplicity of heart, fearing God.
Col 3:22.

Be sober and watch: because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, goes about seeking whom he may devour.
1Pet 5:8.

What is your point? Of course, we should avoid immoral people, of course ministers should cultivate virtue, of course Christians must be wary of temptation and the activity of Satan. But what on earth is your point?

But as Robbie said you could have looked up the scriptures long ago. It just seems to me if you were really interested in them you would have used your Bible to see...

As I explained, this is a basic courtesy. Ask Jaywill. When he posts, he normally gives the quote, explains what it means and ties it in with the point he is seeking to make. It is quite rude to post several quotes (mind you, not actually posting the verses) and give no explanation, no contention, nothing. It is as if you expect your read to do everything for you.

And what does intelligence have to do with the bad that's been going on for so long in the Catholic church?

Good point. So why insult Catholics' ability to understand Scripture?

Sure there's bad in every aspect of life in the wicked world we are in, but it seems that as a whole over the decades that this has been covered up all the way to the top.

Well, as I have shown, the rate of clerical abuse amongst Catholic priests is not higher than in Protestant denominations. The crucial difference is only that abuse in the Catholic Church was covered-up. Whether anyone 'at the top' can be implicated is unclear. I do not think the Pope has engaged in any cover-up of abuse allegations; in many ways, he has implemented very positive reforms.

So my question to you is if the Catholic church were really with God's favor and blessings, why is this happening?

God's grace cannot turn an obstinate heart. If a man, whether he is a priest or not, deliberately turns from God to sin, God cannot change his heart. This is the consequence of a fallen world. As I have said before, however, I do not think that the popes are responsible (mind you, we do not call them our 'fathers'😉.