The Same

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Can you give an example of something which can achieved by hardly lifting a finger.

Everyone I know or know of who has achieved anything in life has done so through a commitment to hard work, practice, and through giving something back. The ideas being proposed by Taoman are the usual whimsical incomprehensions we see from the Buddhist pretenders.

Originally posted by divegeester
Everyone I know or know of who has achieved anything in life has done so through a commitment to hard work, practice, and through giving something back. The ideas being proposed by Taoman are the usual whimsical incomprehensions we see from the Buddhist pretenders.

I agree wholeheartedly, true satisfaction is not accomplished through less effort.

Originally posted by Taoman
Yes it can be done that way. But if you are able to achieve what you are aiming at with hardly lifting a finger, (and it happens), surely that is better than expending all that costly and unnecessary effort? Strive, when needful, but don't waste your effort when you don't need to. The person who achieves the same aim as you with less effort is the greater.

if you could achieve orgasm for yourself and your partner instantly, without all the hot sweaty action, would you?

if you could click your fingers and make an amazing meal to feed your family appear without the hassle of cooking, would you?

if you could make your child instantly absorb all your life wisdom in a split second without slowly teaching them over the years as they grow, would you?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
if you could achieve orgasm for yourself and your partner instantly, without all the hot sweaty action, would you?

if you could click your fingers and make an amazing meal to feed your family appear without the hassle of cooking, would you?

if you could make your child instantly absorb all your life wisdom in a split second without slowly teaching them over the years as they grow, would you?

Of course he would because he is lazy.

The Instructor

Originally posted by stellspalfie
if you could achieve orgasm for yourself and your partner instantly, without all the hot sweaty action, would you?

if you could click your fingers and make an amazing meal to feed your family appear without the hassle of cooking, would you?

if you could make your child instantly absorb all your life wisdom in a split second without slowly teaching them over the years as they grow, would you?

No

No

Yes! Then the little bugger wouldn't need me to sort out the great steaming piles of poo he creates without even lifting a finger.

I shall persist despite some concrete headed black and white thinking. The ability for abstract and subtle thinking is in short supply.

A learning musician (this could be applied to various fields, where the passage from rank amateur to master of the art occurs) begins just seeing the notes, keys, bit by bit, plods along and trains. Of course, he must, and persist. But what he (or she) aims at in skill and performance is something very different, where effort transforms into flow and plodding notes transform into beautiful music. (Also, even a person who can play technically well may never achieve that indefineable that a master musician achieves.)

How this happens is the learning of what makes all the DIFFERENT pieces of music of many genres shine in any performance. He is learning the essential underlying SAME magic or flow or vibe of perfomance that underlies the fine playing of any piece of music, from a quiet or slow classical piece to a loud or hectic rock piece. Each piece of very different music will have the same underlying connective and interacting quality of bringing together many disparate even opposite elements into a wonderful whole.
This can also be applied to our life and the skill with which we live.
If you are unable to understand or I am unable to convey it then no benefit will transfer. This happens often in life. Play on.

Originally posted by Taoman
1. Someone insists that his way is the best way; I do nothing and he finds out what am trying to show him all by himself, by confronting the errors I was trying to point out and he wouldn't listen. By constantly harrassing him I was preventing him and distracting from doing the one way he would learn what I wanted him to see.
2. A complex problem is concerni ...[text shortened]... ome?

Often doing nothing, not lifting a finger is very much what is required, Proper Knob.

Thanks. I get what you mean now.

Originally posted by Taoman
I shall persist despite some concrete headed black and white thinking. The ability for abstract and subtle thinking is in short supply.

A learning musician (this could be applied to various fields, where the passage from rank amateur to master of the art occurs) begins just seeing the notes, keys, bit by bit, plods along and trains. Of course, he must, an ...[text shortened]... or I am unable to convey it then no benefit will transfer. This happens often in life. Play on.

the ability for abstract and subtle thinking is far from in short supply. your ability to convey your point in an accurate manor is in question.

you provided a list of examples of when doing less was necessary to achieve better results. fine, i dont think anybody would argue against that. but this wasnt your initial point. your initial point was 'The greatest achievement is one that is gained without trying at all.' people, including myself disagree with the 'the greatest achievement'. there is no lack of subtle thinking on anybodies part. i dont think anything on your list could be described as a great achievement.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
the ability for abstract and subtle thinking is far from in short supply. your ability to convey your point in an accurate manor is in question.

you provided a list of examples of when doing less was necessary to achieve better results. fine, i dont think anybody would argue against that. but this wasnt your initial point. your initial point was [b]' ...[text shortened]... nybodies part. i dont think anything on your list could be described as a great achievement.

I will provide a context so that the OP can be understood in full;

Since reason in its discursive use is incapable of knowing and understanding in toto what reality is, in specific traditions the physical nature and the human nature are seen in an experiential dimension that transcends ego-consciousness, in order to stop generating an one-sided and thus incomplete world view. So awareness is moved to an extraordinary standpoint pointing towards the Floating World, wherein no Aristotelian logic is accepted as the standard for knowing and understanding reality. This is the sole reason why paradoxes and contradictions and even a seemingly utter nonsense abound in Chan tradition: The koan “Do it all in an instant without the slightest effort” cannot be understood by relying on Aristotelian logic.

The final product is not a case of “laziness” but a result of hard work and deep meditation -the daily chores and the martial arts (wu su, qigong etc) are practiced constantly in order to ease the student to cope with meditation and hence to transcend ego-consiousness. It is not a case, either, of a systematization of knowledge built on the use of a discursive mode of reasoning anchored in the certainty of ego-consciousness, but a mode of awareness that comes forth by means of a reflective restatement of the daily practice built on a positionless position. Often this practice is mistakenly conceived by “the ones that cannot pass the barrier” due to the fact that they name their ignorance, an ignorance grounded on the lack of Hard Work, as “the usual whimsical incomprehensions we see from the Buddhist pretenders”. In fact they cannot pass the barrier because they are not trained to be aware of what is known as “No Thought”, and hence they cannot act in a way that they can at last “Do it all in an instant without the slightest effort”.

Now, how “No Thought” can be practically conceived, and how is it connected with the “perfect effortless action” in question?

In a clear, transparent mirror that does not face anything, no image is reflected in it. It solely mirrors an image because it faces something. And if it does not face anything, it always mirrors regardless of whether it is facing or not facing a thing. The mirror always mirrors because a clear, transparent mirror possesses an original nature as its essential activity of always mirroring things. In analogy, people's mind is originally undefiled and naturally illuminates the Void. With practice, people's mind becomes again originally like that: seeing the Void, it sees no thing; when there is no thing, it sees no thing. Seeing the Void as the Way, the Way is the Void. In the Void the Wisdom has existence, the Principle has existence, the Way has existence, the mind is the Void. This is the true seeing: It always sees.

(BTW, our Proper Knob knows that the Jazz musicians that have It and can really “Do it all in an instant without the slightest effort”, are known as freestylers)
😵

Originally posted by stellspalfie
the ability for abstract and subtle thinking is far from in short supply. your ability to convey your point in an accurate manor is in question.

you provided a list of examples of when doing less was necessary to achieve better results. fine, i dont think anybody would argue against that. but this wasnt your initial point. your initial point was [b]' ...[text shortened]... nybodies part. i dont think anything on your list could be described as a great achievement.

I have explained once what I meant. I do not simplistically think doing nothing achieves all. I accept my inadequacies of communication. But I do it in such a manner to provoke thought. I fail.

Unfortunately you persist in interpreting what I am saying in a particular way. I am not saying you shouldn't try. I am making a statement that when you are able to expend less energy and effort to achieve the same thing, you have advanced.

Another thought by the way, if someone overlooks something important because they didn't stop and do nothing for a bit, intent on the wonders of hyper activity and action, action, action, can waste an enormous amount of energy and effort, and even fail utterly.

I would prefer the values of spending time in thought and meditation (no, not all the time!) in approaching life matters rather than talking to the clouds.

Science, technology, industry and the military spend much work and funding to lessen input for the same or better output. Should we not attempt to do so also with our life? But I expect you will immediately jump to the other end and assume I mean do absolutely nothing at all, ever.
I am not sure how you define "great achievement", but for me saving one's life is one, as is resolving a major scientific problem in a bathtub (It happened). Saving a relationship is another. Perhaps for you we have to be some sort of great hero, sportsperson or wealthy businessman to be worthy of that? For some a great achievement is not to have committed suicide, or to have conquered an addiction, or maintain a positive attitude in the midst of cancer..

Originally posted by black beetle
I will provide a context so that the OP can be understood in full;

Since reason in its discursive use is incapable of knowing and understanding in toto what reality is, in specific traditions the physical nature and the human nature are seen in an experiential dimension that transcends ego-consciousness, in order to stop generating an one-sided and t ...[text shortened]... n really “Do it all in an instant without the slightest effort”, are known as freestylers)
😵

Thank you for that deeper explanation; I was approaching from elsewhere. Greetings.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Can you give an example of something which can achieved by hardly lifting a finger.

Pretty much everything that Stephen Hawking does.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree wholeheartedly, true satisfaction is not accomplished through less effort.

I'm not so sure - I'd much rather get paid for what I know rather than how much I sweat.

Originally posted by black beetle
I will provide a context so that the OP can be understood in full;

Since reason in its discursive use is incapable of knowing and understanding in toto what reality is, in specific traditions the physical nature and the human nature are seen in an experiential dimension that transcends ego-consciousness, in order to stop generating an one-sided and t ...[text shortened]... n really “Do it all in an instant without the slightest effort”, are known as freestylers)
😵

Ooh a soft centred insult wrapped in chewy gobbledygook, my favourite!

Originally posted by divegeester
Ooh a soft centred insult wrapped in chewy gobbledygook, my favourite!

Whenever I am fully aware of the fact that I am a patzer, I do not insult myself but I press myself to try harder; I just think lightly of myself and deeply of the world, my favourite!
😵