Originally posted by XanthosNZLast year he was on a mission station. Now he's in his 4th year of a three year degree. Seen people raised from the dead. Does 60 assignments a week and works as a waiter for pocket money. Certainly leads an interesting and varied life.
You're claiming to be a chemistry student and this is your logic? What about endothermic processes (that means they absorb energy), those result in a reduced entropy (heat energy is the more entropic form of anything there is).
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Originally posted by XanthosNZYeah right, we all know that rust adds to the complexity of a car door, and increases it's durability...
Do you think that perhaps if I meant the Big Bang I would have mentioned it? Good God, you're dumb.
And chemicals left to themselves break apart? That would explain corrosion. I mean, leave some metal lying about and then you have a metal oxide. A more complex chemical and you didn't do crap.
And we are yet to see life arise from a piece of rusted metal...
Originally posted by dj2beckerYou claimed that chemicals could not form more complex chemicals without interaction. I showed an example that did so. Don't weasel out if, you were wrong. Again.
Yeah right, we all know that rust adds to the complexity of a car door, and increases it's durability...
And we are yet to see life arise from a piece of rusted metal...
You didn't ask anything about adding durability or life arising so cut that crap out right now.
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Originally posted by GregMThe whole point is that life is NOT "left to itself," but supplied with energy from the Sun!
The whole point is that life is NOT "left to itself," but supplied with energy from the Sun!
To create any kind of upward, complex organization in a closed system requires outside energy and outside information. As an evolutionist you maintain that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics does not prevent Evolution on Earth, since this planet receives outs It sounds like you accept that the second law of thermodynamics does not rule out evolution?
Aha, I see... So the sun just magically appeared in the sky and started supplying the energy necessary for life.
So you accept that the Sun can provide the energy necessary for a local decrease in entropy, and your argument is now that mere solar energy acting on matter couldn't have brought about life. It sounds like you accept that the second law of thermodynamics does not rule out evolution?
I am focusing on abiogenesis at the moment. I will move on to evolution at a later stage.
Originally posted by GregMI think leaving everything to the Sun is unnecessarily simplistic. Surely the Earth is a more complex organism than that? The planet itself has considerable residual heat, plate tectonics, a magnetic field, the moon, weathering and much more - including a sun. In the case of a plant, energy is provided by many sources, not just the sun.
[b]The whole point is that life is NOT "left to itself," but supplied with energy from the Sun!
[b]
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Originally posted by XanthosNZMy statement was made within the context of abiogenesis theory. If you read the entire thread you will see that Twithead and myself are discussing thermodynamics with relation to abiogenesis theory.
You claimed that chemicals could not form more complex chemicals without interaction. I showed an example that did so. Don't weasel out if, you were wrong. Again.
You didn't ask anything about adding durability or life arising so cut that crap out right now.
Your example of metal does not exactly fit into the abiogenesis model does it?
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Originally posted by buffalobillAnd complex earth is a result of what exactly?
I think leaving everything to the Sun is unnecessarily simplistic. Surely the Earth is a more complex organism than that? The planet itself has considerable residual heat, plate tectonics, a magnetic field, the moon, weathering and much more - including a sun. In the case of a plant, energy is provided by many sources, not just the sun.
Originally posted by XanthosNZThis isn't accurate... I believe the technical term, for what you have stated, is crappurate.
Do you think that perhaps if I meant the Big Bang I would have mentioned it? Good God, you're dumb.
And chemicals left to themselves break apart? That would explain corrosion. I mean, leave some metal lying about and then you have a metal oxide. A more complex chemical and you didn't do crap.
Dj2becker is correct in his assertion that chemicals left to themselves will decompose over time. Even this is the result of external pressures (UV light, pressure differences, heat, etc...). Rust formation represents the addition of oxygen from an external source. A completely closed system in equilibrium will tend to stay that way until something acts upon it to force a change.
Imagine that you are leaning up against a bar, enjoying an beer, minding your own business and dj2becker wanders up to kick you right in the nuts. This would be an endothermic reaction, dj having added energy to the system that is Xanthos. Otherwise, you would have remained at rest until some other external influence acted upon you.
Originally posted by dj2beckerYeah right, we all know that rust adds to the complexity of a car door, and increases it's durability...
Yeah right, we all know that rust adds to the complexity of a car door, and increases it's durability...
And we are yet to see life arise from a piece of rusted metal...
Durability has nothing to do with complexity. And yes, a piece of metal mottled with rust spots is more complex than a plain sheet of metal.
And we are yet to see life arise from a piece of rusted metal...
This has nothing to do with the conversation.
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Originally posted by Hand of HecateOr an internal influence of course, such as a bursting bladder caused by the overconsumption of liquor.
This isn't accurate... I believe the technical term, for what you have stated, is crappurate.
Dj2becker is correct in his assertion that chemicals left to themselves will decompose over time. Even this is the result of external pressures (UV light, pressure differences, heat, etc...). Rust formation represents the addition of oxygen from an exter ...[text shortened]... Otherwise, you would have remained at rest until some other external influence acted upon you.
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Originally posted by buffalobillSurely the Earth is a more complex organism than that?
I think leaving everything to the Sun is unnecessarily simplistic. Surely the Earth is a more complex organism than that? The planet itself has considerable residual heat, plate tectonics, a magnetic field, the moon, weathering and much more - including a sun. In the case of a plant, energy is provided by many sources, not just the sun.
Unless you are a "Gaian" then probably you don't believe that the earth is alive. If you are a Gaian, then what are you doing with a computer, you hippy.
Hydrothermal vents aside, the sun is the predominant energy source for life on earth, probably more than 99.99% of biomass is as a result of energy from the sun.
In the case of a plant, energy is provided by many sources, not just the sun.
This is incorrect.
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Originally posted by scottishinnzDurability has nothing to do with complexity. And yes, a piece of metal mottled with rust spots is more complex than a plain sheet of metal.
[b]Yeah right, we all know that rust adds to the complexity of a car door, and increases it's durability...
Durability has nothing to do with complexity. And yes, a piece of metal mottled with rust spots is more complex than a plain sheet of metal.
And we are yet to see life arise from a piece of rusted metal...
This has nothing to do with the conversation.[/b]
Ah, but wait a few years and the rust will corrode your plain sheet of metal till there is hardly anything left of it.
This has nothing to do with the conversation.
So you refuse to discuss abiogenesis. Suit yourself.
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Originally posted by dj2beckerAha, I see... So the sun just magically appeared in the sky and started supplying the energy necessary for life.
[b]The whole point is that life is NOT "left to itself," but supplied with energy from the Sun!
Aha, I see... So the sun just magically appeared in the sky and started supplying the energy necessary for life.
So you accept that the Sun can provide the energy necessary for a local decrease in entropy, and your argument is now that mere ...[text shortened]...
I am focusing on abiogenesis at the moment. I will move on to evolution at a later stage.[/b]
No, but we explained this already. Seriously what kind of so called physics major doesn't know about the formation of stars?
Originally posted by dj2beckerAh, but wait a few years and the rust will corrode your plain sheet of metal till there is hardly anything left of it.
[b]Durability has nothing to do with complexity. And yes, a piece of metal mottled with rust spots is more complex than a plain sheet of metal.
Ah, but wait a few years and the rust will corrode your plain sheet of metal till there is hardly anything left of it.
This has nothing to do with the conversation.
So you refuse to discuss abiogenesis. Suit yourself.[/b]
And at that point it will be even more complex than it was before.
So you refuse to discuss abiogenesis. Suit yourself.
I'm quite happy to discuss abiogenesis. Your statement had nothing to do with abiogenic theory however.