1. Joined
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    23 Dec '11 15:30
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    What do you think of the Shroud of Turin and the Sudarium of Oviedo
    as evidence for the resurrection of the Christ since there is an empty
    tomb in Jerusalem reported to be the tomb where Jesus was placed
    after His death on the cross.
    They mean nothing to me. I see them [as a great many Christians do too] as being on the 'tabloid' end of the religionist spectrum, and they have no relevance to me.
  2. Subscriberjosephw
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    23 Dec '11 15:40
    Originally posted by FMF
    I understand your point of view. Tell me; have you ever converted someone by talking to them the way you are talking to me here? Take for example, like you said earlier: "If I tell you I believe in something, and I share that with you, why do you accuse me of telling you lies [when you say you don't believe what I say]". Has this kind of 'argumentation' actually ...[text shortened]... rked for you on anybody? Were you yourself converted by someone talking to you in that way?
    This debate is unique in that we have converged in this forum where our conversation is limited to merely words and brief exchanges of ideas and concepts not fully developed.

    I assume much in the knowledge you possess to fill in where I am abbreviating. I have never to my knowledge ever convinced anyone that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life in a letter or in any forum. It would be very interesting indeed if I actually wrote something that triggered a thought progression within the one reading it that lead to their conversion.
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    23 Dec '11 15:51
    Originally posted by josephw
    I have never to my knowledge ever convinced anyone that Jesus is the way, the truth and the life in a letter or in any forum.
    Word of advice if you ever decide to try: telling people they are "essentially" accusing you of "lying" when they say they do not share your beliefs, is unlikely to work with anyone.
  4. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Dec '11 15:58
    Originally posted by FMF
    They mean nothing to me. I see them [as a great many Christians do too] as being on the 'tabloid' end of the religionist spectrum, and they have no relevance to me.
    So you will only consider evidence against the resurrection. I understand
    you completely now. No need to discuss this anymore. Bye. 😏
  5. Joined
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    23 Dec '11 16:03
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    So you will only consider evidence against the resurrection.
    Which evidence is that?
  6. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Dec '11 16:48
    Originally posted by FMF
    Which evidence is that?
    I don't know if there is any. But you just proved my point by jumping
    all over that. 😏
  7. Joined
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    23 Dec '11 16:57
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    I don't know if there is any. But you just proved my point by jumping
    all over that. 😏
    The shroud isn't proof of anything. It has no 'spiritual' meaning whatsoever. Maybe if I were a Christian I might cling to the hope that it is evidence of something, but - not having the same need or hope invested in its "meaning" as you do - I don't. I hope the shroud helps you make sense of your life. I fully support your right to pursue or construct - and propagate - your own chosen belief system.
  8. Windsor, Ontario
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    23 Dec '11 18:28
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Modern medical advances have nothing to do with the theory of evolution.
    false

    😏

    P.S. Doctors and researchers can do their jobs just fine without believing
    in it. Also electricity would not benefit me if I refused to flip the switch.]


    correct. their beliefs on the matter are irrelevant. electricity does not have to benefit you nor does it benefit from your beliefs and your beliefs on the matter are also irrelevant.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    23 Dec '11 18:39
    Originally posted by VoidSpirit
    false

    😏

    P.S. Doctors and researchers can do their jobs just fine without believing
    in it. Also electricity would not benefit me if I refused to flip the switch.]


    correct. their beliefs on the matter are irrelevant. electricity does not have to benefit you nor does it benefit from your beliefs and your beliefs on the matter are also irrelevant.
    Your beliefs are irrelevant to me. 😛
  10. Windsor, Ontario
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    23 Dec '11 22:40
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    Your beliefs are irrelevant to me. 😛
    you're beginning to understand.
  11. Subscriberjosephw
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    25 Dec '11 14:17
    Originally posted by FMF
    Word of advice if you ever decide to try: telling people they are "essentially" accusing you of "lying" when they say they do not share your beliefs, is unlikely to work with anyone.
    If it is true, that Jesus is the way, and I tell one that truth, and that one says they don't believe it, for whatever reason, is that not akin to saying I'm lying?

    What is the difference between saying to someone "you're lying" or "I don't believe it" when one tells them the truth?

    We can split that hair, but it's the same hair. I'm not offended when someone calls me a liar, or tells me they don't believe what I say when I tell them the truth. It's not my truth. I didn't invent God. But I believe God.
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    25 Dec '11 14:23
    Originally posted by josephw
    What is the difference between saying to someone "you're lying" or "I don't believe it" when one tells them the truth?
    Your "truth" is subjective and it is a belief that you hold. For someone to say they don't believe the same thing as you is not even remotely like calling you a "liar". What you are doing is akin to wordplay.

    Merry Christmas. 😵
  13. Subscriberjosephw
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    25 Dec '11 14:551 edit
    Originally posted by FMF
    Your "truth" is subjective and it is a belief that you hold. For someone to say they don't believe the same thing as you is not even remotely like calling you a "liar". What you are doing is akin to wordplay.

    Merry Christmas. 😵
    Truth is objective, but produces a subjective response.

    I don't want you thinking I was suggesting that you called me a liar. And yes, what I am doing can be said to be wordplay.

    A rolling stone gathers no moss. I roll every stone I possibly can. How else can one discover truth?

    Merry Christmas John.
  14. Joined
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    25 Dec '11 15:28
    Originally posted by josephw
    If I tell you I believe in something, and I share that with you, why do you accuse me of telling you lies. Essentially that is what you are doing.
    😴 Surely your belief system deserves better advocacy than this kind of facile wordplay?
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    25 Dec '11 16:061 edit
    Originally posted by josephw
    If it is true, that Jesus is the way, and I tell one that truth, and that one says they don't believe it, for whatever reason, is that not akin to saying I'm lying?

    What is the difference between saying to someone "you're lying" or "I don't believe it" when one tells them the truth?

    We can split that hair, but it's the same hair. I'm not offended when the truth. It's not [b]my
    truth. I didn't invent God. But I believe God.[/b]
    As Abram, Abraham was not a righteous man, but he believed God and it was
    counted to him as righteousness. Merry Christmas. 🙂
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