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    11 Dec '14 17:173 edits
    The Bible says that the root of all evil is the love of money. This is a pretty powerful statement.

    Those that don't adhere to a particular faith seem equally transfixed by wealth. Marx is a prime example. He saw the "evils" of society were generated by a fight over money, but from a slightly different perspective.

    Today is no different. By in large we are bombarded by political figures preaching "equality" and demonizing the top 1%. In fact, every endevour within government seems to focus on curbing the "evils" of a free market.

    Jesus once observed people giving money to the synagogue. He saw the rich giving away their treasures, and a poor woman giving out of her poverty. Jesus was so impressed by this that he declared that even though she gave a much smaller amount of money than the rest, she gave all she had. Jesus then declared that she had given the most in his estimation.

    For me, the issue of spirituality is where the hearts of men are. Looking at the world today, most hearts seem to be geared towards attaining wealth, weather it be earning it or trying to take the wealth of others. If nothing else is as important, whether you are rich or poor, then you are on the wrong path spritually speaking. "Salvation" then rests upon the condition of our hearts and what is most important to us. Those that mirror that of the one who grants salvation, assuming He exists, attains salvation. What you end up loving the most will then either save you, or damn you.

    Conversely, from a secular point of view, our collective salvation comes from everyone being "equal" fiscally. This salvation is a temperal salvation because life is temperal, not to mention impossible to attain since fiscal equality is an impossiblity. Those that venture down this path seem always to be unhappy, agnry, depressed, for their collective salvation is impossible and deep down they know it. Regardless, they are ready to jump on the next bandwagon that promises them their utopian fantasy.

    However, those that venture down the path of attaining a "pure heart", even though extremely poor, can be very happy and content.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
  2. Cape Town
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    11 Dec '14 17:28
    Originally posted by whodey
    However, those that venture down the path of attaining a "pure heart", even though extremely poor, can be very happy and content.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    It is fairly well known that happiness does not correlate well with wealth.

    I also have to point out that money is a proxy for several things, and it is often those things that we desire and not money itself. The three biggest reasons people want money are:
    1. Status.
    2. Power.
    3. Goods.
    There are also security, peace of mind, health, providing for your family and even giving.
    But I would say that it is 1 to 3 that leads to evil. Generally people who do not feel they have to show off their status or excerpt power over others or desire goods they don't really need are generally much happier than those who do.
    However people who have more money for security, peace of mind, health, providing for family, and giving, are generally happier than those who do not have such money.
    So its not just about how much money you have, but how you use it.
  3. Joined
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    11 Dec '14 17:32
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    It is fairly well known that happiness does not correlate well with wealth.

    I also have to point out that money is a proxy for several things, and it is often those things that we desire and not money itself. The three biggest reasons people want money are:
    1. Status.
    2. Power.
    3. Goods.
    There are also security, peace of mind, health, providing for ...[text shortened]... who do not have such money.
    So its not just about how much money you have, but how you use it.
    4. Security.
    5. Health.
    6. Time.
    7. Autonomy.
  4. Joined
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    11 Dec '14 17:40
    Originally posted by JS357
    4. Security.
    5. Health.
    6. Time.
    7. Autonomy.
    Let's just cut to the chase, the issue is freedom. It is freedom to do whatever you desire.

    For most, this is their hearts goal. It is to attain as much freedom for themselves, even at the expense of others.

    Take for example those on the far left. They claim to want to help the poor folk by giving away entitlements and embracing illegals who come to the US. In fact, Obama recently quoted scripture about embracing the foreigner as a moral thing to do. However, if jobs start to go to those poor folk in other countries then their focus changes. They no longer espouse helping the poor folk, they want those jobs for themselves.
  5. Standard membersonship
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    11 Dec '14 17:502 edits
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    11 Dec '14 18:45
    Originally posted by sonship
    Indeed.
  7. Cape Town
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    11 Dec '14 18:55
    Originally posted by whodey
    Let's just cut to the chase, the issue is freedom. It is freedom to do whatever you desire.
    I disagree. That comes very low on the list for most people. Many people quite readily give up freedoms in exchange for other things. Movie stars and singers give up some freedom in exchange for fame. Many people happily give up freedoms in exchange for security. Some people give up freedoms in exchange for the chance to not take responsibility.
    From my own observations, most middle class people, especially people climbing the social ladder, spend the majority of their available money on status. Where they choose to live, what car they drive etc has more to do with status than it does with utility.
  8. Joined
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    11 Dec '14 19:033 edits
    Originally posted by twhitehead
    I disagree. That comes very low on the list for most people. Many people quite readily give up freedoms in exchange for other things. Movie stars and singers give up some freedom in exchange for fame. Many people happily give up freedoms in exchange for security. Some people give up freedoms in exchange for the chance to not take responsibility.
    From my ...[text shortened]... ey choose to live, what car they drive etc has more to do with status than it does with utility.
    People may give up some things they feel that they cannot attain without giving up those freedoms.

    I don't see how this contradicts my argument in the least. We all know that if they did not feel that they had to give up something to attain something else, they would not do it. The bottom line is that they value one thing they feel is nearly unattainable over another that they are willing to sacrifice in order to attain the thing they value the most.

    According to scripture, Jesus did the same. He sacrificed himself for our salvation. He in no way wanted to do so, in fact, he prayed earnestly to escape the cross. The thing he valued the most, however, dictated that he go through with sacrificing himself.

    Likewise, if you feel that in order to obtain security for yourself you are willing to fork over "X" amount of dollars for your own personal peace of mind you might do so, but you would rather obtain it for nothing.
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    11 Dec '14 19:12
    Originally posted by whodey
    The Bible says that the root of all evil is the love of money. This is a pretty powerful statement.

    Those that don't adhere to a particular faith seem equally transfixed by wealth. Marx is a prime example. He saw the "evils" of society were generated by a fight over money, but from a slightly different perspective.

    Today is no different. By in large ...[text shortened]... ", even though extremely poor, can be very happy and content.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    1 Timothy 6:6
    But godliness with contentment is great gain.
  10. Territories Unknown
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    11 Dec '14 19:36
    Originally posted by whodey
    The Bible says that the root of all evil is the love of money. This is a pretty powerful statement.

    Those that don't adhere to a particular faith seem equally transfixed by wealth. Marx is a prime example. He saw the "evils" of society were generated by a fight over money, but from a slightly different perspective.

    Today is no different. By in large ...[text shortened]... ", even though extremely poor, can be very happy and content.

    Has anyone else noticed this?
    Twenty-two years ago last month, my oldest son (then three months old) went under sedation for a second surgery to repair arotic valve stenosis.
    In my late twenties at the time, I was used to being in control of everything in my periphery--- or, at least I thought as much.
    This situation poked the biggest of holes in that thinking as I had ever experienced.
    This situation also was by far the most liberating experience I ever had before or since: I finally realized God gives life and God takes it away; I was otherwise completely powerless.

    The fondness of silver (philarguria) spoken of in I Timothy 6:10 (to my way of thinking) speaks more of the tendency of man to seek insulation and comfort by way of superficial means in order to avoid a dependence upon God for the basics of our existence.
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    11 Dec '14 19:41
    Originally posted by FreakyKBH
    Twenty-two years ago last month, my oldest son (then three months old) went under sedation for a second surgery to repair arotic valve stenosis.
    In my late twenties at the time, I was used to being in control of everything in my periphery--- or, at least I thought as much.
    This situation poked the biggest of holes in that thinking as I had ever experienc ...[text shortened]... ay of superficial means in order to avoid a dependence upon God for the basics of our existence.
    Well said.

    Others may take another approach. Let's say you were placed in the same position, but chose to take your own life and/or that of your infant in order to maintain control.

    Some people choose to go "Robin Williams" than to face their own mortality and weakness.
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    12 Dec '14 02:292 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Take for example those on the far left. They claim to want to help the poor folk by giving away entitlements and embracing illegals who come to the US. In fact, Obama recently quoted scripture about embracing the foreigner as a moral thing to do. However, if jobs start to go to those poor folk in other countries then their focus changes. They no longer espouse helping the poor folk, they want those jobs for themselves.


    This country was built on a philosophy of entitlement. The European came to this continent and said - "We're entitled to this river, those woods, those fields, valleys, meadows and everything else here."

    Manifest Destiny was philosophy of entitlement to just about everything.
    So it comes around to bite you on the butt now by "illegal aliens."
    And some want to slam shut the Golden Gate just because they got theirs already.

    This is suppose to be real spiritual ? Democrats of old supported Manifest Destiny -

    Historians have emphasized that "Manifest Destiny" was a contested concept—Democrats endorsed the idea but many prominent Americans (such as Abraham Lincoln, Ulysses S. Grant, and most Whigs) rejected it. Historian Daniel Walker Howe writes, "American imperialism did not represent an American consensus; it provoked bitter dissent within the national polity.... Whigs saw America's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than one of conquest."[4]
    Wiki
  13. SubscriberFMF
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    12 Dec '14 02:34
    Well said, sonship.
  14. Joined
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    12 Dec '14 03:15
    Originally posted by sonship
    Take for example those on the far left. They claim to want to help the poor folk by giving away entitlements and embracing illegals who come to the US. In fact, Obama recently quoted scripture about embracing the foreigner as a moral thing to do. However, if jobs start to go to those poor folk in other countries then their focus changes. They no long ...[text shortened]... rica's moral mission as one of democratic example rather than one of conquest."[4]
    Wiki
    Human morality is full of hypocrisy.

    As the Bible states, "We like sheep have all gone astray as we all seek our own way".

    Doing "good" is all well and good, so long as we are not inconvenienced.
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    12 Dec '14 03:351 edit
    Originally posted by whodey
    Human morality is full of hypocrisy.

    As the Bible states, "We like sheep have all gone astray as we all seek our own way".

    Doing "good" is all well and good, so long as we are not inconvenienced.
    Human morality is full of hypocrisy.


    I agree.

    So when someone comes along swooning about "God, Guns, and Guts made America great" we should take this kind of high morality with a grain of salt?


    As the Bible states, "We like sheep have all gone astray as we all seek our own way".


    Amen.

    You can also find in the Bible "Money solves everything" (Ecclesiastes 10:9)

    Parallel Verses
    New International Version
    A feast is made for laughter, wine makes life merry, and money is the answer for everything.

    New Living Translation
    A party gives laughter, wine gives happiness, and money gives everything!

    English Standard Version
    Bread is made for laughter, and wine gladdens life, and money answers everything.

    New American Standard Bible
    Men prepare a meal for enjoyment, and wine makes life merry, and money is the answer to everything.


    So we do have to consider context.

    The love of money is A root of all evil. And you don't have to have it to love it.

    The spirituality comes in I think in how you handle what God has given you the ability to gain. You're annoyed because liberals can quote the Bible. Some are similarly skeptical when a supply side New Testament is offered to bless a status quo which may not be to everyone's benefit.


    Doing "good" is all well and good, so long as we are not inconvenienced.


    I don't know about that.

    Both Liberal and Conservative worldviews are about investment.
    One is a philosophy in investing in those poor with a idealistic hope that they WILL turn out to be profitable to the nation.

    The other is a philosophy of investing in those who have already proven that they are profitable to the nation.

    Liberalism is a kind of investment just as much as Conservatism.
    And upon reading a little bit about Marx I was surprised at how unsentimental his concepts were. He was no bleeding heart do gooder. Rather he argued that mathematically his system made more sense.

    Some have told me "It don't bother me if the rich get richer and the poor get poorer." Actually that trend can be unsustainable and become a huge bother. If not to that guy, to his grandchildren someday.
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