The Sprit and the Bride

Originally posted by divegeester

I've explained my position in this forum many times and you have read it and responded why do you want me to do so again? did you not pay attention last time?

I honestly can't quite remember anything specific that I thought had some substantial impact.

But repeating is a nuisance, I know. So never mind.

Carry on with some new posters.

Originally posted by sonship
I honestly can't quite remember anything specific that I thought had some substantial impact. But repeating is a nuisance, I know. So never mind. Carry on with some new posters.

Nice deflection robbie.

Originally posted by divegeester
Nice deflection robbie.

Deflecting a soggy noodle?
Not much need for that.

Originally posted by sonship
Deflecting a soggy noodle?
Not much need for that.

Is this how you always react to being disagreed with?

Originally posted by sonship
How do you think the Christians' feeling of embarrassment in believing in God's eternal punishment will make the matter not exist ?

One could just as easily ask you how you think your lack of embarrassment regarding your pernicious "God's eternal punishment" ideology somehow makes it exist?

Originally posted by divegeester
Is this how you always react to being disagreed with?

Nice deflection robbie.

Is this how you always react to being disagreed with ?

No?
Hmmm.

Hey, come to think of it I do not always respond in just one way either.

Originally posted by sonship
Hey, come to think of it I do not always respond in just one way either.

Do you have any comment on my post at the bottom of page two?

Originally posted by divegeester

Some response to you divi as you must prefer.

I've explained my position in this forum many times and you have read it and responded why do you want me to do so again? did you not pay attention last time?

As I recollect, I don't recall too much except a deep revulsion and resentment. No point seemed to have too much more than a strong emotional dislike for the concept of the lake of fire.

I think it is you who are making a caricature of God and is you who should take care lest you diminish the gospel and the appeal of Christ through this horrendous doctrine.

You cannot ignore that Jesus took the matter of punishment beyond what man is able to do very seriously. It seems to be one of the motivating factors leading Him to shed His life's blood upon His cross that we may be saved.

Can I ignore that ?

1.) Verses like John 3:16 speak of eternal life verses to perish.

2.) His views the shedding of His blood to be for the forgiveness of sins.

"For this is My blood of the covenant, which is being poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." (Matt. 26:28)

The total picture is that Jesus apparently took very seriously the need for our justification before God. All things considered to "perish" in John 3 is a matter of abiding under the wrath of God.

John the Baptist adds his word and we do not see Jesus correcting him or rebuking him in this regard -

"He who believes into the Son has eternal life; but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (v.36)

Since the Son took, to perish, so seriously, and He went to such a length to save me, I think I should also take His teaching seriously.

Of course your self image here is one of preacher and your posts reflect that, so I doubt you'll take notice of me as your whole stance here in this is one of rebuke isn't it?

What's wrong with being a preacher of the Gospel ?

I said a "preacher" and not a "clergyman".

I was brought to the Lord Jesus through preaching and prayer.
Do you oppose the great commission ?

"Go therefore and disciple all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you.

And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:19,20)

So what is wrong with preaching and teaching to observe all that He has commanded His disciples ?

And you're not preaching ?

you set God and Christ up as being torturers, a horrendous accusation which would require rock solid unequivocal evidence and it simply doesn't exist. Here is the reasonable doubt:

Well, I think that eternal separation from God is like a black hole. If you are in rebellion against God and Christ now, what will your soul be like in one million years ?

A "fire" of Satan likeness will probably grow and devour the rebel.
It could be worse that we imagine and God spoke it to us in terms which can be universally comprehended.

Jesus said the eternal fire was prepared for the Devil and his angels. If its original purpose was for the devil and his angels then man does not belong there. And the implication might be that one eventually takes on the total opinion of the devil and his angels.

"Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS." (Matt. 25:41)

The unreconciled follow their leader to his destiny.
They would not be extricated from his kingdom of darkness.
They co-share his miserable destiny.

And the saved co-share the glorious destiny of the Son of God.

The passage in Matthew is probably parabolic; Jesus nearly always spoke to the common people in this way.

Even if parabolic, it testifies to the DANGER of not being reconciled to the King who determines our destiny.

"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory and all the angels with Him, at that time He will sit on the throne of His glory." (Matt. 25:1)

Even the words are not a verbatim recording of what this One on the throne will say, the meaning is clear. To be on the wrong side of this One on the throne of glory will be a terrible thing of eternal consequences.

Assigning the arguable word "parable" to verses 31 - 46 hardly detract it from its urgency.

But no, you will insist that it's literal - why? To protect your precious doctrine that sets our Lord up as being worse than the deluded hate filled maniacs who behead people on the internet for being infidels -

The one who seems filled with hate are often the Universalists and Annihilations. Look at your seething hatred -

"deluded hate filled maniacs"

Really? I mean EVERY announcer of the Gospel on the Internet is a "deluded hate filled maniac" ?

This kind of exaggerated blanket statement more reveals a seething hatred in your own soul. Grant that there are some with a wrong spirit. Even Jesus rebuked John and James for wanting to bring fire down on a city that rejected His gospel.

Luke 9:54,55

New American Standard Bible
When His disciples James and John saw this, they said, "Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them?"

But He turned and rebuked them, and said, "You do not know what kind of spirit you are of;

But this rebuke of the over zealous impetuous disciples did not go so far as the Lord totally distancing Himself from the teaching of passages speaking of the urgency of the need for salvation from eternal punishment.

Rather than let hate fill me to make blanket generalizations I'd prefer to take a case by case approach. And many cases of preachers of the NT Gospel are not the words of " deluded hate filled maniacs."

You are not going to make the entire Christian public the Westboro Baptist Church are you ? It would not be realistic. And you would be becoming LIKE them yourself in seething hate filled generalizations.

you do see that it's the same but worse don't you? If you reject Christ I will burn you for eternity in hell - if you reject Allah we will chop your head off - quid pro quo.

Your analogy does not work.

The chopping off of heads is the act of man.
Jesus warned that God has the authority and power to do what man cannot do.

You cannot take something like the Spanish Inquisition and blame it on God. Nor can you take the beheadings of fanatical Moslems and blame them on Jesus Christ.

Why do you not place the blame for the warnings of eternal perdition on the One from whose mouth we learned them - Jesus Christ ?

Go to the SOURCE of the teaching.

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul, but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna." (Matt. 10:28)

This is not the only verse in the Bible.
This is not the only approach Christ taught in relation to the Gospel.
But it is ONE aspect which He did teach.

Isn't the popular word today "holistic" ? I find that it means total or many faceted and all encompassing approach. Why would not the ultimate truth in its "holistic" completeness also have a very fearful side to ir?

At least in THIS passage you have Jesus teaching what? You have Him teaching about WHOM to fear and WHY. It cannot be denied that this passage is a teaching out of mouth of Jesus pertaining to the proper use of fear.

It is not the only thing spoken by Christ. But it is spoken by Christ.
And if you don't like it then you should stop deflecting your unbelief elsewhere and argue that He never taught such.

The other passages in Revelation you will no doubt lean on are spurious at best in terms of their specific claims and are obviously full of symbolism i.e. is the lake really a lake and is it really full of Brimstone?

I have to consider that the "symbolism" could be a communication of something maybe worse.

I above said used an analogy of a black hole. It is so self absorbed and collapsed in gravity that nothing can escape, not even light.

If a sinner will not be reconciled to God he may collapse on himself as a kind of black hole of God hatred. He morphs into a partner of Satan himself.

I think your best bet is to let the Gospel alone.
Believe and live Christ, manifesting His love to sinners.
The word gave us some examples of the mature believers - IE Paul, John, Peter to name three.

I believe in the second death. I do not accept that God will take billions of people many who will not have even heard the gospel and burn them alive for all eternity while (as it says of the beast being thrown in) Christ and his angels watch.

You are INJECTING things into the passage which are not written.

" God will take billions of people many who will not have even heard the gospel and burn them alive for all eternity "

The passage you are alluding to - Revelation 14:9-12, does not state this. But you are throwing this into the passage in a presumptuous way.

Now you may argue back " But I heard some teacher or preacher say ....".

I don't care. I care about what the passage SAYS.

But you may pushback - "But Christian theology says ... " concerning those who never heard the gospel - billions of them.

Well I care about what is said. And sometimes there is SILENCE about some things which make the Bible difficult to systematize 100%. There, I believe, some unknowns. And I expect some surprises in the ultimate end.

Now I recall that these words I h...

Now I recall that these words I have written before, possibly to you.
And that is why I wrote that I can understand you not wanting to repeat the same discussion with the same person.

Otherwise, I think we are just going around in circles as no one is swayed in his opinion by the other.

I don't need anyone to tell me that the concept of eternal punishment is really awful. The same mouth that spoke the greatest words or mercy, love, long suffering, patience, forgiveness, redemption, pardon, grace, justication ... etc. FROM THAT SAME MOUTH came the most fearsome words warning us of not being reconciled to the Ultimate Judge.

Get that through your head already. We may not know everything. We know what He wants us to know. And God reserved the strongest warnings of negative consequences of judgment, to be spoken from the same Person who uttered the greatest words of positive favor and love of God.

What John said he saw in Revelation 14 is based on what John HEARD from the Lord Jesus, now being underlined by visions and signs.

I suggest stop and think about what you believe about our God and actually write it down with the scriptures that support it and see if you still feel so wedded to it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the admonition. I don't mind at all contemplating what I feel God has shown me. Nor do I not seek to separate out things which MAY just be my wrong headed understanding of Scripture.

Read John 3:16 5 or 6 times and then tell me the same God has engineered this hellish eternal torture.

Do you think Albert Einstein was a fiendish fellow for suggesting that if I fell into a black hole I would be crushed by gravity and never escape ?

Do you think Stephen Hawking is cruel, savage, and inhuman to inform us that if we entered a black hole we would be swallowed up by an inescapable gravitational force from which even LIGHT itself could not escape ?

Do you think Hawking is coercing us to love him by threatening us with this ?

Well I do not think Jesus Christ is threatening us to love Him or His Father by warning us that an ultimate offense against truth CAN be committed.

Originally posted by sonship
Do you think Albert Einstein was a fiendish fellow for suggesting that if I fell into a black hole I would be crushed by gravity and never escape ?

Do you think Stephen Hawking is cruel, savage, and inhuman to inform us that if we entered a black hole we would be swallowed up by an inescapable gravitational force from which even LIGHT itself could no ...[text shortened]... to love Him or His Father by warning us that an ultimate offense against truth CAN be committed.

Thanks sonship; I will look at this later but as you say a quick scan through looks like you have indeed expressed these points before.

These comparisons you have made with Einstein and Hawking are not valid defense of the doctrine of eternal suffering though, because they [Einstein or Hawking] neither created the black holes, nor are they casting people into them, nor are they extending the suffering caused by being in a black hole for all eternity.

I don't know what an "ultimate offence against the truth is" - you may be using non-scriptural descriptions here.

Originally posted by divegeester

Thanks sonship; I will look at this later but as you say a quick scan through looks like you have indeed expressed these points before.

That's right.

Other comments I would like to express would involve you in more reading of Scriptures than you probably would like.

These comparisons you have made with Einstein and Hawking are not valid defense of the doctrine of eternal suffering though, because they [Einstein or Hawking] neither created the black holes, nor are they casting people into them, nor are they extending the suffering caused by being in a black hole for all eternity.

The analogy is not perfect. But there are parallels.

Yes I agree that Einstien and Hawking did not invent these black holes nor are they casting people into them. However, Jesus is not only God but MAN as one of us. He is of us. He shares ground with us. He is of a kinship with mankind.

In this regard as God / Man He does share ground with CREATED man.

I don't know about you, but when I read the passage about whom to fear, I touch the feeling of the man Jesus Himself. He is speaking, I think, from personal experience. Because of incarnation He shares full humanity with us.

This is what I mean Luke 12:5.

"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do.

But I will show you whom you should fear: fear Him who, after killin, has authority to cast into Gehenna, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

Because Luke stresses the humanity of Jesus Christ more so while Matthew emphasizes His kingship, in Luke you touch the human feeling of the Lord Jesus. He calls us "My friends". He reiterates with full human feeling - "yes, I tell you, fear this One."

He was and still is one of us. He learned obedience through the things which He suffered (Hebrews 5:8).

This one is God, no doubt. But He is God INCARNATE as one of US. He is a MAN like you and I are men. And because of His obedience He has been appointed to be judge of the living and the dead.

"And He gave Him authority to execute judgment because He is the Son of Man." (John 5:27).

You spoke of the the symbolism in the book of Revelation. In John's vision of one like the Son of Man, His feet were as bronze fired in a furnace. Bronze speaks of God's judgment. This One, this MAN has walked through the blazing furnace of affliction by human experience. He was fully tested. He was thoroughly charged.

God has appointed this One to be the judge to carry out the judgment. He does not need to recuse Himself. He will save perhaps the very soldier who drove the nail into His feet. He may forgive the very one who drove the nail into the hands.

He will judge the judgment of God "according to truth" (Rom. 2:2)

Anyway, part of the truth of the Gospel is that God became a man. This man has been exalted because of His utter obedience to His Father, including the death of a cross. He was God's Slave going to the uttermost to bear witness to the truth.

And I don't think anyone can exceed Him in His concern for man's destiny.

I don't know what an "ultimate offence against the truth is" - you may be using non-scriptural descriptions here.

I think as far as it is possible for man to understand, God Himself became subject to death at the hands of His own creatures, on our guilty behalf.
What else can He do if we reject Him ?

I think there is a often a link between the rejection of eternal punishment with the under appreciation of Who it was who was upon that cross pouring out His blood in love for the guilty sinner.

How's your sense of the incarnation of God as a man ?

Originally posted by sonship
The analogy is not perfect. But there are parallels. Yes I agree that Einstien and Hawking did not invent these black holes nor are they casting people into them. However, Jesus is not only God but MAN as one of us. He is of us. He shares ground with us. He is of a kinship with mankind.

You were comparing Hawking and Einstein and their mere discoveries of black holes with your version of God creating a hell of eternal fire and throwing people into it and watching them burn for all eternity - I don't see any parallels at all.

To attempt to use Christ's humanity as an explanation of a parallel between these two completely unconnected phenomena is nonsensical. Can you give more insight into your thinking here?

Originally posted by divegeester

You were comparing Hawking and Einstein and their mere discoveries of black holes with your version of God creating a hell of eternal fire and throwing people into it and watching them burn for all eternity - I don't see any parallels at all.

To attempt to use Christ's humanity as an explanation of a parallel between these two completely unconnected phenomena is nonsensical. Can you give more insight into your thinking here?

You thought my comments on Jesus telling us, in empathy, Who it is that man should really fear, was nonsensical too ?

How do you explain the sense of total serious recognition of my need to be saved ? Did Jesus have to go through Gethsemane - praying until drops of blood came out of His head like sweat?

If your view was correct, then WHY didn't the Son of God simply reason - "Well, if sonship is not justified before My Father, it will not be all THAT bad. The worst of it is he will just pass peacefully out of existence."

To what do you attribute the total absoluteness of One who was innocent to DIE in my place ?

What was the big deal if my guilt self was just going to jump laughing into my grave of annihilation, Adolf Eichmann style, chuckling at what I got away with ?

Adolf Eichmann apparently thought he only had non-existence to look forward to. He said he and other Nazis would jump into their graves after being hung, laughing at what they got away with.

Adolf Eichmann is now bitterly disappointed.

He should have heeded the teaching of Jesus Whom it was that man should really fear - the One who has authority to punish beyond man's ability to take away one's physical life (Luke 12:5)

Please don't teach me to ignore what Adolf Eichmann ignored.

Luke 12:4-5 King James Version (KJV)

4 And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do.

5 But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him.

The Bible places Jesus Christ as one of us though He is God.He was tempted in all regards like us, yet without sin.

Hebrews 4:15King James Version (KJV)

15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of One, for which cause He is not ashamed to call us brothers.

King James 2000 Bible

For both he that sanctifies and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Because Jesus is a man and stood on earth on the ground of also being a man subject to His Father God, I believe that His warning is filled with His personal kinship with our situation.

In that regard the analogy of Einstein and Hawking, I believe, is appropriate. What they knew they objectively related as the truth to us.

What the man Jesus knew He objectively also related to His fellow created men. Man must be reconciled to God.

Now I told you before, and now repeat. The LAST scene I see in Revelation concerning the lake of fire is that whoever's name was not recorded in the book of life was caste into the lake of fire (Rev. 20:15).

I think a FINAL word is a decisive word. With this FINAL word concerning eternal judgment, if others do not admit, I have to admit -

I do not know ALL the possible ways a human being can have their name recorded in the book of life.

So when people like you overflow with descriptions of billions who never heard the Gospel and thus and such appeals to put God in the most unrighteous, unfair, and unjust scenario, I respond by saying "I don't know that."

I know that whoever's name was not in the book of life went to a place which has no positive aspects to it in terms of "forever", somewhere to be avoided. Earlier I am told that whosoever believes into Christ will not perish but have eternal life.

I take this at face value to mean - whosoever believes into Jesus Christ the Son of God will not perish but have eternal life.

Others may claim, I do not, that all the ways in which a name is entered into the Lamb's book of life, are known by them.

Now Jesus said I should not be ashamed of Him and His words (Luke 9:26). So I look to the Lord not ever to be ashamed of Him and His words. I count Revelation 14 to also be the word of Jesus Christ. I didn't say it was always easy to not be ashamed.

Now I think I have also said this to you before. I warned you that repetition is bothersome.

If before the creation of anything, God created ME and came to me asking -

"sonship, what is your opinion? What do YOU think I should do with those who refuse to be reconciled to God? Should I just make them pass out of existence or should I assign them a place of everlasting suffering? You decide. And based on your wisdom, that is what I will do."

I would probably reply - " God, I do not presume to have the wisdom to know what should happen to such beings. I do not trust myself that I know what should happen. I leave that decision to You as God Almighty, the ground of being, the Creator and ultimate Governor of all existence. You should make that determination. I might be wrong. I do not know the consequences of what I might propose should happen, in case I am WRONG."

And I dare say that YOU neither know the full implications of what you think is the way God should execute final judgment. The eternal repercussions of YOUR proposal, are unknown.

I think I will let God be God.

Originally posted by sonship

You were comparing Hawking and Einstein and their mere discoveries of black holes with your version of God creating a hell of eternal fire and throwing people into it and watching them burn for all eternity - I don't see any parallels at all.

[quote]
To attempt to use Christ's humanity as an explanation of a parallel between these two c ...[text shortened]... . The eternal repercussions of YOUR proposal, is an unknown.

I think I will let God be God.

I'm not sure if you realise it or not, but you are still not explaining how Christ's humanity is a parallel between the discoveries of black holes and the creation of an eternal burning hell.

Simply writing lots of new text in each post doesn't distract from the fact that you are not making a good argument to support your version of god.

Originally posted by divegeester

I'm not sure if you realise it or not, but you are still not explaining how Christ's humanity is a parallel between the discoveries of black holes and the creation of an eternal burning hell.

Maybe I have no answer which will satisfy you.

If to score a winning point in debate is your goal, then chalk yourself up your point if that is what you want.

As for me, I know that God's purpose is that I be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers.

In the end, if not now completely, I will see everything through the eyes of a son of God, like Jesus THE Son of God.

You, on the other hand, have never succeeded in proving that the Son of God never uttered these words along with the OTHER words of grace He uttered.

While you're complaining about a job not done, consider your own incompleted task.

Simply writing lots of new text in each post doesn't distract from the fact that you are not making a good argument to support your version of god.

Excuse me fella, But it is the version of God which came out of the mouth and behavior of one Jesus of Nazareth. And that is what you find unable to refute.

Read my keyboard. YOUR BLAME IS MISDIRECTED.

Now you could take the route of Thomas Jefferson and just strike out of the New Testament everything YOU do not agree with, saying that this is the New Testament. Otherwise PROVE that it is only MY version of God and not the version of God found in the text of the New Testament.