The Trinity - A jewish theological perspective

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
ask your three gods for an answer to that question.

This, as you should know, was a rhetorical question that I do not expect an answer, because I believe it is not gonig to happen. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
This, as you should know, was a rhetorical question that I do not expect an answer, because I believe it is not gonig to happen. 🙄

and in turn, my statement was sarcastic. i don't think for one instant that you believe in any god.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
and in turn, my statement was sarcastic. i don't think for one instant that you believe in any god.

You are correct that I do not believe in any god. I believe in the Triune God and His Christ instead. 😏

HalleluYah !!! Praise the Lord! Holy! Holy! Holy!

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Disagree

So who do you think all these scriptures are speaking of?

Originally posted by galveston75
Thanks for the respect. I wish others here would follow that example.
But I'll ask you the same about this scripture: Who is this speaking of?

Proverbs 8:22-23
Good News Translation 22 “The Lord created me first of all,
the first of his works, long ago.
23 I was made in the very beginning,
at the first, before the world began.

And these ...[text shortened]... mes Version (NKJV)

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Proverbs 8 is a praise of wisdom and understanding. Let us see if we can gain some wisdom and understanding by looking at some of the important verses of this proverb. The following verses are from the NASB:

Does not wisdom call,
And understanding lift up her voice?
(Verse 1)

“To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
"O naive ones, understand prudence;
And, O fools, understand wisdom.
(Verses 4-5)


“Take my instruction and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choicest gold.
“For wisdom is better than jewels;
And all desirable things cannot compare with her.
“I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And I find knowledge and discretion.
(Verses 10-12)

“By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
“By me princes rule, and nobles,
All who judge rightly.
(Verses 15-16)

All these verses use a literary devise known as "poetic personification" to describe the concept or idea of wisdom and understanding. Wisdom and understanding are referred to in the feminine, as has often been done of other concepts and things in poetry that has been exteneded over into common usage, like for a ship or a hurricane.

“The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
“From everlasting I was established,
From the beginning, from the earliest times of the earth.
“When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no springs abounding with water.
(Verses 22-23)

These last three verses have sometimes been mistranslated and are a problem for the Jehovah's Witnesses, just as it was for Arius and the heretical group that followed him. Arius was pronounced to be a heretic by the Ecumenical First Council of Nicaea of 325 A.D. and again at the Ecumenical First Council of Constantinople of 381 A.D. This verse 22 has been mistranslated in the past to indicate that God "created or made" wisdom instead of that He has always possessed wisdom.

The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,.... Not "created me", for the Wisdom of God is never said to be created or made. We cannot think of God as ever having been without Wisdom. So it should be obvious that such translations are in error.

The idea of verse 23 is that it is an established fact that God has always possessed wisdom from everlasting and from the beginning of creation of the earth. This idea is continued on in verse 24 by indicating that before the waters of the oceans and springs were made that God needed to bring forth His wisdom and understanding in the act of creation. God could not create anything without already possessing wisdom and understanding.

This wisdom of God has also been attributed to Christ as the Son of God that created all things, because He needed wisdom and understanding in order to create. But it in no way means that God created Michael, the archangel, as the wisdom of God as the Watchtower declares.

Originally posted by galveston75
So who do you think all these scriptures are speaking of?

You can look at every verse you mentioned here...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You can look at every verse you mentioned here...
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/verses

Not all of what the Unitarians believe is believed by Christians, however.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Not all of what the Unitarians believe is believed by Christians, however.

Unitarian simply means "One God", I am not a member of this church, but I believe in one God the creator of the Heavens and the Earth and one Lord,His Son Jesus Christ. According to Romans 10:9 and 10 I am a Christian even if you think other wise.
I could say you are not a Christian but an idolater, because you believe in a 3 headed god. But I won't....🙂

Some light on how it all started.......


The Seduction of Philosophy

Historian Will Durant explains: “The Church took over some religious customs and forms common in pre-Christian [pagan] Rome—the stole and other vestments of pagan priests, the use of incense and holy water in purifications, the burning of candles and an everlasting light before the altar, the worship of the saints, the architecture of the basilica, the law of Rome as a basis for canon law, the title of Pontifex Maximus for the Supreme Pontiff, and, in the fourth century, the Latin language . . . Soon the bishops, rather than the Roman prefects, would be the source of order and the seat of power in the cities; the metropolitans, or archbishops, would support, if not supplant, the provincial governors; and the synod of bishops would succeed the provincial assembly. The Roman Church followed in the footsteps of the Roman state.”—The Story of Civilization: Part III—Caesar and Christ.

This attitude of compromise with the Roman world stands in stark contrast to the teachings of Christ and the apostles. The apostle Peter counseled: “Beloved ones, . . . I am arousing your clear thinking faculties by way of a reminder, that you should remember the sayings previously spoken by the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles. You, therefore, beloved ones, having this advance knowledge, be on your guard that you may not be led away with them by the error of the law-defying people and fall from your own steadfastness.” Paul clearly counseled: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? . . . ‘“Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,” says Jehovah, “and quit touching the unclean thing”’; ‘“and I will take you in.”’”—2 Peter 3:1, 2, 17; 2 Corinthians 6:14-17; Revelation 18:2-5.

In spite of this clear admonition, apostate Christians of the second century took on the trappings of the pagan Roman religion. They moved away from their pure Biblical origins and instead clothed themselves with pagan Roman garb and titles and became imbued with Greek philosophy. Professor Wolfson of Harvard University explains in The Crucible of Christianity that in the second century, there was a great influx into Christianity of “philosophically trained gentiles.” These admired the wisdom of the Greeks and thought they saw similarities between Greek philosophy and teachings of the Scriptures. Wolfson continues: “Sometimes they variously express themselves to the effect that philosophy is God’s special gift to the Greeks by way of human reason as Scripture is to the Jews by way of direct revelation.” He continues: “The Fathers of the Church . . . entered upon their systematic undertaking to show how, behind the homely language in which Scripture likes to express itself, there are hidden the teachings of the philosophers couched in the obscure technical terms coined in their Academy, Lyceum, and Porch [centers for philosophical discussion].”

Such an attitude left the way open for Greek philosophy and terminology to infiltrate Christendom’s teachings, especially in the fields of Trinitarian doctrine and the belief in an immortal soul. As Wolfson states: “The [church] Fathers began to look in the stockpile of philosophic terminology for two good technical terms, of which one would be used as a designation of the reality of the distinctness of each member of the Trinity as an individual and the other would be used as a designation of their underlying common unity.” Yet, they had to admit that “the conception of a triune God is a mystery which cannot be solved by human reason.” In contrast, Paul had clearly recognized the danger of such contamination and ‘perversion of the good news’ when he wrote to the Galatian and Colossian Christians: “Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy [Greek, phi·lo·so·phi′as] and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.”—Galatians 1:7-9; Colossians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 1:22, 23.

Thus you now have the trinity as doctrine in most so called Christian religions.

Christianity Versus Christendom

Porphyry, a third-century philosopher from Tyre and an opposer of Christianity, raised the question “as to whether followers of Jesus, rather than Jesus himself, were responsible for the distinctive form of the Christian religion. Porphyry (and Julian [fourth-century Roman emperor and opposer of Christianity]) showed, on the basis of the New Testament, that Jesus did not call himself God and that he preached, not about himself, but about the one God, the God of all.
It was his followers who abandoned his teaching and introduced a new way of their own in which Jesus (not the one God) was the object of worship and adoration. . . . [Porphyry] put his finger on a troubling issue for Christian thinkers: does the Christian faith rest on the preaching of Jesus or on the ideas forged by his disciples in the generations after his death?”—The Christians as the Romans Saw Them.

Constantine’s Role at Nicaea

For many years, there had been much opposition on Biblical grounds to the developing idea that Jesus was God. To try to solve the dispute, Roman emperor Constantine summoned all bishops to Nicaea. About 300, a fraction of the total, actually attended.
Constantine was not a Christian. Supposedly, he converted later in life, but he was not baptized until he lay dying. Regarding him, Henry Chadwick says in The Early Church: “Constantine, like his father, worshipped the Unconquered Sun; . . . his conversion should not be interpreted as an inward experience of grace . . . It was a military matter. His comprehension of Christian doctrine was never very clear, but he was sure that victory in battle lay in the gift of the God of the Christians.”
What role did this unbaptized emperor play at the Council of Nicaea? The Encyclopædia Britannica relates: “Constantine himself presided, actively guiding the discussions, and personally proposed . . . the crucial formula expressing the relation of Christ to God in the creed issued by the council, ‘of one substance with the Father’ . . . Overawed by the emperor, the bishops, with two exceptions only, signed the creed, many of them much against their inclination.”
Hence, Constantine’s role was crucial. After two months of furious religious debate, this pagan politician intervened and decided in favor of those who said that Jesus was God. But why? Certainly not because of any Biblical conviction. “Constantine had basically no understanding whatsoever of the questions that were being asked in Greek theology,” says A Short History of Christian Doctrine. What he did understand was that religious division was a threat to his empire, and he wanted to solidify his domain.
None of the bishops at Nicaea promoted a Trinity, however. They decided only the nature of Jesus but not the role of the holy spirit. If a Trinity had been a clear Bible truth, should they not have proposed it at that time?

Further Development

After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C.E. to clarify the formula.
That council agreed to place the holy spirit on the same level as God and Christ. For the first time, Christendom’s Trinity began to come into focus.
Yet, even after the Council of Constantinople, the Trinity did not become a widely accepted creed. Many opposed it and thus brought on themselves violent persecution. It was only in later centuries that the Trinity was formulated into set creeds. The Encyclopedia Americana notes: “The full development of Trinitarianism took place in the West, in the Scholasticism of the Middle Ages, when an explanation was undertaken in terms of philosophy and psychology.”


The Athanasian Creed

THE Trinity was defined more fully in the Athanasian Creed. Athanasius was a clergyman who supported Constantine at Nicaea. The creed that bears his name declares: “We worship one God in Trinity . . . The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; and yet they are not three gods, but one God.”
Well-informed scholars agree, however, that Athanasius did not compose this creed. The New Encyclopædia Britannica comments: “The creed was unknown to the Eastern Church until the 12th century. Since the 17th century, scholars have generally agreed that the Athanasian Creed was not written by Athanasius (died 373) but was probably composed in southern France during the 5th century. . . . The creed’s influence seems to have been primarily in southern France and Spain in the 6th and 7th centuries. It was used in the liturgy of the church in Germany in the 9th century and somewhat later in Rome.”
So it took centuries from the time of Christ for the Trinity to become widely accepted in Christendom. And in all of this, what guided the decisions? Was it the Word of God, or was it clerical and political considerations? In Origin and Evolution of Religion, E. W. Hopkins answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”

Apostasy Foretold

This disreputable history of the Trinity fits in with what Jesus and his apostles foretold would follow their time. They said that there would be an apostasy, a deviation, a falling away from true worship until Christ’s return, when true worship would be restored before God’s day of destruction of this system of things.
Regarding that “day,” the apostle Paul said: “It will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed.” (2 Thessalonians 2:3, 7) Later, he foretold: “When I have gone fierce wolves will invade you and will have no mercy on the flock. Even from your own ranks there will be men coming forward with a travesty of the truth on their lips to induce the disciples to follow them.” (Acts 20:29, 30, JB) Other disciples of Jesus also wrote of this apostasy with its ‘lawless’ clergy class.—See, for example, 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 4:1-3; Jude 3, 4.
Paul also wrote: “The time is sure to come when, far from being content with sound teaching, people will be avid for the latest novelty and collect themselves a whole series of teachers according to their own tastes; and then, instead of listening to the truth, they will turn to myths.”—2 Timothy 4:3, 4, JB.
Jesus himself explained what was behind this falling away from true worship. He said that he had sowed good seeds but that the enemy, Satan, would oversow the field with weeds. So along with the first blades of wheat, the weeds appeared also. Thus, a deviation from pure Christianity was to be expected until the harvest, when Christ would set matters right. (Matthew 13:24-43) The Encyclopedia Americana comments: “Fourth century Trinitarianism did not reflect accurately early Christian teaching regarding the nature of God; it was, on the contrary, a deviation from this teaching.” Where, then, did this deviation originate?—1 Timothy 1:6.

Originally posted by galveston75
Further Development

After Nicaea, debates on the subject continued for decades. Those who believed that Jesus was not equal to God even came back into favor for a time. But later Emperor Theodosius decided against them. He established the creed of the Council of Nicaea as the standard for his realm and convened the Council of Constantinople in 381 C. ...[text shortened]... answers: “The final orthodox definition of the trinity was largely a matter of church politics.”

Is this what the Watchtower teaches you. These are some of the false teachers predicted, my friend. 😏

Originally posted by RJHinds
Is this what the Watchtower teaches you. These are some of the false teachers predicted, my friend. 😏

Small misunderstanding just as all of God's people have done. No comparison to the postings I have presented that has caused the deaths of millions and backed by those churches including yours.