The Trinity in First Corinthians 3

Originally posted by sonship

Sonship and his type treads on dangerous ground.

Your folly is going to be manifested to most Christians here.

Explain how it is "dangerous ground" to appreciate the symbolism of God as a solid Rock.
Explain how it is treading "dangerous ground" for taking faithfully Christ's words that He is [b]" the bread that came down from heaven ...[text shortened]... mple ?

Any two of the examples above you may use to explain we are treading dangerous ground.

You did not read what I wrote. Read it again.

Originally posted by Rajk999

I read it.

God or Christ is a rock. Yes. However it is a different matter for Bible readers to take it upon themselves to make such comparisons on their own where these were not clearly stated, as this can be the beginning of idolatry.

" Can be the beginning of idolatry "
"Can be the beginning of Communism"
"Can be the beginning of voodoo "

You can say anything "can be the beginning of something".

We could say everything you have written in the Forum "can be the beginning of ... whatever negative thing we would like to mention."

Joseph is nowhere mentioned in the New Testament as a type of Christ.
Many Bible students down through the years have recognize that even though it is not clearly stated, Jospeh's life sure reminds us of Jesus Christ.

You may say to teach that Joseph is a pointer to Christ Who was betrayed by His brothers, put into a pit, sold for silver coins, an unfairly sentenced and raised to reign over the world, certainly seems to symbolizes Christ. Some critics may say this "can lead to idolatry" may only reveal an paranoid person.

God is a consuming fire is stated in conjuction with the very same sin which many described as the most hated by God. Hence the need to be careful.

...
... etc. etc. ... and ye shall have remained long in the land, and shall corrupt yourselves, and make a graven image, or the likeness of any thing, and shall do evil in the sight of the LORD thy God, to provoke him to anger Deuteronomy 4:23-25 KJV)

This is not terribly pertinent to this particular issue of strongly implied symbolism.

It is even worse when Paul condemned the use of gold and jewelry for one to claim that the works of man likened to gold etc, [again clearly stated by Paul] represents God etc. It is a foolish comparison and unbiblical.

My conscience is 100% clear that I mention that the gold could conceivably represent the divine nature of the Father. The New Testament says that the Christians are "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4)

It does little harm to any true seeker of Jesus Christ to hear that the symbolic building material of First Corinthians 3 including gold may represent "the divine nature" of which the sons of God become "partakers".

Are we saying "Go off now and worship gold" ? Of course we are not saying that.
It is the same with the symbols of silver and precious stones possibly representing the WORK of Christ's redemption and the WORK of the Holy Spirit's transformation.

You're sounding a false alarm.

Some Christian sects take this matter of idolatry lightly and use images of Christ and of God and pictures to which they bow down. God cannot be pleased with this.

Sonship and his type treads on dangerous ground.

This paranoia is beyond silly.

Robert Govette (1924 - 1955) writes of this section of in his book The Judgment Seat of Christ -

"If any buildeth on the foundation gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay, stubble." Every disciple has absolute control over the materials with which he builds: he selects which he chooses. Contending motives sway the choice: popularity, social prestige, wealth, pleasure; love to Christ, fidelity, a sense of truth, the fear of God, What is the precious stonework? materials that match the foundation. There are a thousand voices in the world to-day: to the wise man there is but One. "Heaven and earth shall pass away [in fire: 2 Pet. iii.7], but My words shall not pass away" (Matt. xxiv.35): that is the divine Word will survive the judgment fires Every thought, every word, every act is to be built on the quarries of Scripture."

The treatment by this gifted expounder is not identical. But the essence is pretty much the same. The godly life is represented by those materials which will not be consumed by fire. The less valuable expressions of a non-God centered and Word of God centered life will be consumed by Christ's judgment.

This is not Witness Lee speaking but the spirit is very much the same.

What harm does it to correspondingly say the nature of the Father, the redemption of Christ, and the transformation of the Holy Spirit are the superior aspects of the Christian? What harm is there to encourage believers concerning that which is sure to result in survival of Christ's judgment of believers and merit reward?

You don't know healthy Christian teaching when you see it.

Originally posted by sonship
I read it.

God or Christ is a rock. Yes. However it is a different matter for Bible readers to take it upon themselves to make such comparisons on their own where these were not clearly stated, as this can be the beginning of idolatry.

" Can be the beginning of idolatry "
"Can be the beginning of Communism"
"Can be the b ...[text shortened]... of believers and merit reward?

You don't know healthy Christian teaching when you see it.

My point was that Paul said that these things gold, silver.... stubble, all represent MANS WORK. You insist that some of it is Gods work [which is fine], and liken these physical objects to God and Christ etc. [not fine in m opinion]

If you do that then you go off on your own and depart from what the Bible clearly says.

And this is the start of idolatry.

It is the reason why many Christians today see no harm in representing Christ by some picture of some unknown man. This picture becomes an object of worship for some and this is not in keeping with what God intended.

Originally posted by Rajk999

My point was that Paul said that these things gold, silver.... stubble, all represent MANS WORK. You insist that some of it is Gods work [which is fine], and liken these physical objects to God and Christ etc. [not fine in m opinion]

There are three POSITIVE building materials - gold, silver, precious stones.

There are three NEGATIVE building materuals - "wood, hay, stubble.

Why do we know that the gold, silver and precious stones are the desirable and POSITIVE materials? It is because they will not burn up in a fire. Correspondingly, we know the wood, grass [or hay], and stubble are NEGATIVE because the WILL burn up in fire.

More pertinent to your point: The materials to WILL last are works of man VIA the WORK of the Triune God in man.

The materials that will NOT last are the works of man WITHOUT the operation of the Triune God. Rather they are what man can do apart from the divine nature, apart from the redemption of Christ, and apart from the tranforming of the Holy Spirit.

These are the efforts of the natural man, the religious man quite apart from the work of God in him.

How then can we know that that POSITIVE materials are of God's work in man? It is because of the immediately preceding verse 9.

" ...You are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's BUILDING."

To GROW is to BUILD.
To GROW in God's life within them is to BUILD the church.
To increase in the maturity of God's life which has been planted and watered in the saints, is to be building the building - the church.

The increase of Jesus Christ into every aspect of their lives is to also build upon the churches foundation - Christ, with those materials which can STAND the fiery examination to occur to all Christians.

To fail to grow is to build with what man is NATURALLY - represented by those inferior materials which will not survive the fiery examination of Christ.

Please read this entire post a second time before responding off the fly contrarily. I cannot believe that a reasonable serious Bible student cannot grasp the analogy.

- sonship

PS If you still do not understand consult the second chapter of Ephesians towards the end to SEE that the building of God is built BY the growth of the divine life in the believers.

If you do that then you go off on your own and depart from what the Bible clearly says.

And this is the start of idolatry.

It is the reason why many Christians today see no harm in representing Christ by some picture of some unknown man. This picture becomes an object of worship for some and this is not in keeping with what God intended.
ReplyReply & Quote

Originally posted by gswilm

My point was that Paul said that these things gold, silver.... stubble, all represent MANS WORK. You insist that some of it is Gods work [which is fine], and liken these physical objects to God and Christ etc. [not fine in m opinion]

There are three POSITIVE building materials - [b]gold, silver, precious stones.

There are three NE ...[text shortened]... bject of worship for some and this is not in keeping with what God intended.
ReplyReply & Quote[/b]

You take pleasure in adding and ammending to the Bible.
I take pleasure in taking the words of the bible as it is written.

So we are completely different people.
I will walk away from a lecture you are conducting and you will walk away from mine.

Originally posted by Rajk999

So we are completely different people.
I will walk away from a lecture you are conducting and you will walk away from mine.

The entity that Paul discusses is described as something organic which grows and something which by growing is builded.

" You are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. "

The "You" is the church in Corinth.
She is composed of people who have received the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

Some we babes in Christ. Some were infants. Some were more mature. Paul seeks that Christ wold grow in them. The planting and the watering of the workers of God is to produce a crop of Christ growing in the believers in the city of Corinth for the building up of the local church there.

The growth of Christ was spontaneously the building of the church too. For the church can only be built with the Christ that they live.

Not only the foundation is uniquely Christ in the local church but the building materials are uniquely the Christ that they live. That is the Christ that has grown up into them.

Such a Christ imparted into man is only by the divine nature of the Father. That is why they can call God "Father" For He has begotten them with His nature being made to indwell them.

This has been because of the redemption Christ has accomplished. And this grows to maturity from infancy through the transforming work of the Holy Spirit.

If the cooperate with this change of living, this transformation of soul, and this standing upon not their own merit but standing on Christ's work of redemption, they will both build up the church as it SHOULD be builded and they will receive a reward when Jesus comes back.

All your talk about such an interpretation being a dangerous temptation to worship idols of gold, silver and precious stone, is silly. I think only a very carnally minded person would be afraid of that.

Rather the interpretation should engender love for the Triune God and His operation to accomplish the growing and building of the practical church life.

- sonship

Originally posted by gswilm

So we are completely different people.
I will walk away from a lecture you are conducting and you will walk away from mine.

The entity that Paul discusses is described as something organic which grows and something which by growing is builded.

[b] " You are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. "

The "You"[/b ...[text shortened]... is operation to accomplish the growing and building of the practical church life.

- sonship

What is your opinion of pictures of Jesus Christ that people place on their walls?

Originally posted by Rajk999
What is your opinion of pictures of Jesus Christ that people place on their walls?

Praying to pictures is idolatry. .

I do not have attractive pictures of "Jesus" because He had no form or comeliness that we should look upon Him or desire Him as isaiah 53 says.

I would not ripe off the wall anyone else's so called pleasant picture of a man who they imagine was Jesus. My family has never had them.

I would exhort though that any such worship or praying to such pictures was wrong. It is idolatry.

I would add that your condemnation of servants of God can reveal a similar level of spiritual blindness. That is all the more true when you cannot specifically point out what is being taught which is in error.

And you do not retract such foolish slanderous accusations. You take healthy spiritual teaching and call it "nonsense". You should be as concerned about having a natural and fleshy mind as Paul wrote of the carnal believers as you are concerned about pictures.

In First Corinthians Paul speaks of the Spirit of God searching, exploring the depths of God.

He explores the depths of God concerning Christ. Right here you have the Trinity revealed. That is the Holy Spirit of God exploring and searching into the depths of God concerning Jesus Christ.

Father - Son - Holy Spirit are seen in this.

"But to us God has reveled them through the Spirit, for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God." (1 Cor. 2:10)

The things are the things concerning Jesus Christ the Son as the rich portion of the believers. God's innermost depths is searched concerning these things by the Holy Spirit.

The three-oneness of God is upheld here also.

Originally posted by gswilm

So we are completely different people.
I will walk away from a lecture you are conducting and you will walk away from mine.

The entity that Paul discusses is described as something organic which grows and something which by growing is builded.

[b] " You are God's cultivated land [or farm], God's building. "

The "You"[/b ...[text shortened]... is operation to accomplish the growing and building of the practical church life.

- sonship

With one mouth you proclaim the inspired word of God and how complete and accurate it is. WIth another mouth you extrapolate and go off preaching different doctrines not clearly in the Bible and often opposing clear Bible doctrines like those from Christ.

Yet you are unable to see the flaw in your preaching... that the word of God the way it was written, the teachings of Christ the Son of God, the words He preached .. is not good enough for you.

Originally posted by Rajk999

With one mouth you proclaim the inspired word of God and how complete and accurate it is. WIth another mouth you extrapolate and go off preaching different doctrines not clearly in the Bible and often opposing clear Bible doctrines like those from Christ.

No, no, no. You're not going to get away with this bit of slander either.

With one mouth I confess that I believe in the inspiration of Scripture.
And with the exact same mouth I have more than once submitted to this Forum, that I do not consider my interpretations of Scripture to be infallible.

Now, if there is error in some of my analysis, you have to do more than just say it is there. You have to present a good case for error in what I expound.

Watch this.

What us the "different doctrines not clearly in the Bible" that you say I am preaching ?

It could be the case that what you DON'T want to SEE you argue is not "clear" in the Bible.

Yet you are unable to see the flaw in your preaching...

Once again, I do not regard all my interpretations as infallible.

Look, you do not see me argue about CREEDS. You do see me argue about the plain words of the Scripture.

Creeds of the Christianity are secondary. Creeds of Christianity may even be inadequate. Regardless, creeds are secondary.

What you see me emphasize over creedal like statements is the WORDS of Scripture. Don't get me wrong. Some creeds (and I say some) may be helpful in a limited way. No creed surpasses the importance of the WORDS of the Scripture.

If my quotation of the WORDS of Scripture and my expounding on the WORDS of Scripture are considered by you "different doctrines" or false Christian teaching, you have to demonstrate that.

I've never known you to be successful in doing that.

Now, you want to insist that the gold, silver, and precious stones have absolutely nothing to do with the work of the Trinity ??

To that I would say "Maybe". But I think probably they DO have to do with the blessing of the Father, the blessing of the Son, and the blessing of the Holy Spirit.

What is rather symbolic there certainly can be spelled out in plain un-allegorical teaching.

The Christians ARE "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4) .

If you cannot grasp the connection, even if imaginatively embellished, between the lasting material of GOLD and the divine nature of God by which gives the believer to right to address God as Father, then you need help.

Silver is thought by more than two or three expositors to be a symbol of Christ's REDEMPTION.

And "precious stones" ? Come on now ! Come on now Bible reader.
You mean you never read that the saints are LIVING STONES to be built up into a spiritual house and a holy priesthood ?

" Coming to Him, a living stone, rejected by men but with God chosen and precious.

YOU YOURSELVES ALSO ... as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house into a holy priesthood to offer up spiritual sacrifices to God through Jesus Christ." ( 2 Pet. 2:4,5)

Can sinful human beings be built up a spiritual house without the transformation work of the Holy Spirit ?

Can fallen sinners be changed to offer up "spiritual sacrifices through Jesus Christ" WITHOUT the transforming work of the Holy Spirit ?

Is it not the transforming work of the Holy Spirit which constitutes fallen people to become PRECIOUS to God ?

Is it not the Holy Spirit that can build up the saints in oneness ?

Are the saints not to be the "dwelling place of God in Spirit" (Eph. 2:22) ?

How are they so made to GROW into a habitation of God in spirit without the Holy Spirit ?

We have plain TEACHING to stand behind the allegorical symbolism of the "gold, silver, and precious stones" of First Corinthians?

Does such an expounding HURT the Christian ?
Or is such an expounding AGAINST the Gospel of Christ ?
At worst it is a little visionary.

Readers, God can be our Father. His divine nature being imparted into us is like gold which cannot be burned up.

Believing into Jesus Christ constitutes a sinner BOUGHT by Jesus Christ out from under the law of God.

" Christ has REDEEMED us out of the curse of the law, having become a curse for us ..." ( Galatians 3:13a)

Jesus Christ can PURCHASE you out from under the eternal judgment of God.
Jesus Christ can BUY you out from under the curse of the law which renders every man stone guilty before God.
Jesus Christ can REDEEM you as SILVER buys.

Come on now people. is it too hard to hear that the church is built up with the divine nature of the Father, the redemption of Jesus Christ and the transforming work of the Holy Spirit - gold, silver, precious stones ?

that the word of God the way it was written, the teachings of Christ the Son of God, the words He preached .. is not good enough for you.

This expounding of the work of the Father - Son - Holy Spirit, I do not believe harms any Christian I doubt that it harms any unbeliever who has a desire to plumb the depths of the New Testament.

Which one of my usages do you think is the most outlandish ?
My indicating the divine nature of the Father via the symbol of gold ?
My indicating the redemptive work of Jesus via the symbol of silver ?
My indicating the transforming work of the Holy Spirit via the symbol of precious stones?

Which one of these allegorical treatments would you suggest is the most damaging to the Gospel as Jesus preached it ?