31 Jan 14
Who are they, where will they come from, and how will we recognize them?
RJ made a comment in another thread that made me curious. Jesus stated that we should be wary of those who will try to mislead the church/or God's Children. These who will do the misleading will do miracles and show all sorts of signs.
So from Jesus own words, how will we know them?
Two people could show up wearing sack cloth and preach a misleading message in God's holy city. Just a thought.
31 Jan 14
Originally posted by PudgenikThe Bible says :
Who are they, where will they come from, and how will we recognize them?
RJ made a comment in another thread that made me curious. Jesus stated that we should be wary of those who will try to mislead the church/or God's Children. These who will do the misleading will do miracles and show all sorts of signs.
So from Jesus own words, how will we know them ...[text shortened]... d show up wearing sack cloth and preach a misleading message in God's holy city. Just a thought.
Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
I would take that to mean that the elect of God cannot be deceived. Probably God guides the elect in the right direction.
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31 Jan 14
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The two witnesses in chapter 11 are God's witnesses. So they must be true of course -
"And I will cause My two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev. 11:3)
What they do is reminiscent of the miraculous acts of Moses and Elijah in the Old Testament.
"These have authority to shut heaven that no rain may fall during the days of their prophecy; " (v.6a) This reminds us of Elijah.
" ... and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to smite the earth with every plague as often as they desire." (v.6b) This reminds us of Moses.
So I submit that the two prophets are Moses and Elijah. They stand for the Law and the Prophets.
Now I will not expound fully at this time. But these two people from the past are there to counter-act two other evil people also from the past, the beast or Antichrist and the false prophet.
The Antichrist will be Caesar Nero's spirit within the physical body of another person. And the false prophet will be Judas Iscariot.
This latter one, Judas Iscariot, took me over ten years to agree on from the time I first heard it expounded. Eventually, I became persuaded that it is very plausible that the Antichrist is Gentile and his false prophet is Jewish.
The beast comes up from the sea - signifying the Gentile world.
And the other beast, the false prophet comes up out of the land, signifying the nation of Israel.
So in these last days on God's side you will have Moses and Elijah come back to earth and on the side of Satan Nero and Judas Iscariot come back to life.
In the church age the testimony of God is signified by the seven lampstands as local churches. After the rapture of the watching and waiting overcomers, some Christians will be left upon the earth. And the function of witnessing in this last time will be transfered to the two witnesses of God. This is why the symbol of the lampstands is now transfered to them whereas before it was applied to the local churches.
"And I turned to see the voice that spoke to me, and when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands, And in the midst of the lampstands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment reaching to the feet, ... etc." (Rev. 1:11,12).
The proper local churches are the lampstands in the church age.
But in Revelation 11 during the last 1260 days or three and one half years - the great tribulation, the two witnesses are the main testifying individuals.
"These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands which stand before the Lord of the whole earth." (11:4)
The Christians who have missed the first rapture are now in a transition time. The proper age of the testifying church has changed. The next age is the millennial kingdom age. In between for three and one half years, the two witnesses, Moses and Elijah bare a powerful testimony before being martyred and resurrected again (11:7-12).
Some teachers believed that one of the two witnesses will be Enoch. I believe that it is Moses and Elijah.
01 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipI don't want to get too far off topic, but you mentioned the rapture of those waiting etc. Can you provide at least three text in regards to the rapture as you have stated. Are you certain it will come before the anti-Christ? What if you are wrong?
The two witnesses in chapter 11 are God's witnesses. So they must be true of course -
[b]"And I will cause My two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev. 11:3)
What they do is reminiscent of the miraculous acts of Moses and Elijah in the Old Testament.
"These have authority to shut heaven ...[text shortened]... ers believed that one of the two witnesses will be Enoch. I believe that it is Moses and Elijah.
The reason i ask this is, the importance of the so called rapture is miniscule. Mentioned maybe twice, and the timing of the incident can be debated. Yet the Great Day of the Lord has to be mentioned at least 15 times in multiple books.
01 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshipThe Two Witnesses have the spirit of Moses and Elijah. Much like when Jesus told the apostles that John the Baptist was Elijah. We know, based on the scripture, that John t B was born of a woman. So to we must understand, that these Two will also be born of women, yet have the spirit of Moses and Elijah infused in them.
The two witnesses in chapter 11 are God's witnesses. So they must be true of course -
[b]"And I will cause My two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth." (Rev. 11:3)
What they do is reminiscent of the miraculous acts of Moses and Elijah in the Old Testament.
"These have authority to shut heaven ...[text shortened]... ers believed that one of the two witnesses will be Enoch. I believe that it is Moses and Elijah.
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01 Feb 14
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Originally posted by Pudgenik
I don't want to get too far off topic, but you mentioned the rapture of those waiting etc. Can you provide at least three text in regards to the rapture as you have stated. Are you certain it will come before the anti-Christ? What if you are wrong?
The question of rapture as regards the coming antichrist is a bit involved. That is because when he first appears he is not necessarily so villainous. It is after he is killed and resuscitated in a Satanic miracle of resurrection, then his most evil personality is manifested.
That is because when he comes back to life it is with the spirit of Caesar Nero from the abyss. That is during the three and one half last years of this age - the great tribulation.
He may first appear as a great world problem solver. He is killed. And he comes back as the most evil being to fight directly against God.
It is the rapture of the overcomers which is the CAUSE of the commencement of the great tribulation.
Let me say so again because few Christian teachers understand this, I feel. It is the rapture of the vigilant, watching, waiting, walking in Spirit overcomers which is the cause of the coming of the antichrist in his most evil personality. If there is no rapture of at least a remnant of victorious Christians, there will not BE a great tribulation and Antichirst.
Rapture is a strategic move in the spiritual warfare which is the catalyst to cause antichrist to come. Have you ever heard this before ? The rapture of some believers triggers the great tribulation to come.
I think most Christians who believe in a rapture think it is the other way around. And they have some ground to consider it that way. But on closer examination, the coming of Antichrist and the three and one half final years (the great tribulation) are CAUSED by the strategic victory of rapture.
So the secret rapture HAS to be before the most evil manifestation of Antichrist is revealed.
Now to three passages:
Revelation 3:10 - "Because you have kept the word of My endurance, I also will keep you out of the hour of trial, which is about to come on the whole inhabited earth, to try them who dwell on the earth."
This is conditional. Anything conditional means that some Christians will partake of the promise and some Christians will not. So the first rapture is a remnant, a selection, probably a minority of the total number of believers on the earth.
Matthew 24:40 -44 "At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
But know this, that it the householder had known in which watch the thief was coming, he would have watched and would not have allowed his house to be broken into. For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming."
The flavor of this passage is the same as Revelation 3:10. It is a warning. Any warning to Christ's disciples has the possibility of being heeded by some and ignored by others.
If rapture here was automatic upon merely being a disciple, then the Lord Jesus would not speak in terms of warning. So like Revelation 3:10 this passage reveals a selection among men. And the selection may include Christian men and women. One taken who heeded the warning and one left who did not heed the warning.
I leave you with two passages right now rather than three.
The reason i ask this is, the importance of the so called rapture is miniscule. Mentioned maybe twice, and the timing of the incident can be debated. Yet the Great Day of the Lord has to be mentioned at least 15 times in multiple books.
The rapture is important. But the first rapture will be selective and not involve the entire body of Christians on the earth. So some the majority of living believers will pass through the great tribulation under Antichrist.
Then they are collected and taken at the end of the last three and one half year great tribulation. The first rapture will be selective. And if we intend to go up we better learn to walk with God as Enoch walked with God, watch, live Christ, and be ready.
When this remnant of overcomers is raptured, Satan will be furiously motivated and have no other choice but to pull out his most lethal weapons upon mankind.
01 Feb 14
Originally posted by Pudgenikhttp://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259?q=rapture&p=par
I don't want to get too far off topic, but you mentioned the rapture of those waiting etc. Can you provide at least three text in regards to the rapture as you have stated. Are you certain it will come before the anti-Christ? What if you are wrong?
The reason i ask this is, the importance of the so called rapture is miniscule. Mentioned maybe twice, and ...[text shortened]... debated. Yet the Great Day of the Lord has to be mentioned at least 15 times in multiple books.
Here is a little clearification on the thought of the rapture. Also just a point but the word "rapture" is not in the bible.
01 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by PudgenikHere is a video that gives a relatively quick overview of the Book of Revelation that mentions the two witnesses and the speakers interpretation of who they are. He mis-speaks a few times, but either immediately corrects himself or it is easy to tell what he meant to say. You might quibble with him on certain things, and he speaks a little fast for a slow speaking and slow thinking redneck like myself. But I think he does a good job within the two hours he allowed for this video. If you don't have the time to view it in one setting you can pause it and come back later as I did.
Who are they, where will they come from, and how will we recognize them?
RJ made a comment in another thread that made me curious. Jesus stated that we should be wary of those who will try to mislead the church/or God's Children. These who will do the misleading will do miracles and show all sorts of signs.
So from Jesus own words, how will we know them ...[text shortened]... d show up wearing sack cloth and preach a misleading message in God's holy city. Just a thought.
01 Feb 14
Originally posted by sonshipThis verse talks about somebody being taken, and somebody being left.
Matthew 24:40 -44 "At that time two men will be in the field; one is taken and one is left. Two women will be grinding at the mill; one is taken and one is left. Watch therefore, for you do not know on what day your Lord comes.
Some people (including you) have interpreted this as saying the "good" one is taken, (i.e. raptured) and the "bad" one is left.
However, in the other account in the Gospels it states that: "it will be as in the days of Noah, when ..... the flood came and took them all away."
The implication here being that it was the "bad" people that were "taken away", whilst the "good" people, i.e. Noah and his family, were safe, and "left".
You want to be sure to be "left", and not "taken away"!
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01 Feb 14
6 edits
Originally posted by CalJust
This verse talks about somebody being taken, and somebody being left.
Some people (including you) have interpreted this as saying the "good" one is taken, (i.e. raptured) and the "bad" one is left.
The basses of being taken there was not goodness or badness per se. It was watching and readiness. This is born out by the conclusion of the exhortation -
"For this reason you also be ready, because at an hour when you do not expect it, the Son of Man is coming." (v.44)
This comes down to abiding in the Lord and walking in the Spirit. This amounts to a moment by moment walking in the sphere of Christ as if He is actually physically here.
"I have to watch what I do because the Lord Jesus may come at any moment."
This kind of vigilance effects the quality of one's Christian walk. You have to notice that after the resurrection Jesus would appear and disappear to His disciples over a period of 40 days. It does not say that He went away. It says that He was hidden from their sight.
He did this to TRAIN them. "Though you cannot see Me, I am with you."
To watch and be ready is to have this attitude. Though the Lord Jesus cannot be seen, He is nonetheless real, available and with us at this very moment. This is what Christ is conveying in His warning.
The befuddle world will be in a drunken stupor simply eating, drinking, buying, selling, marrying and giving in marriage as if there is no coming of the Lord (vs. 37-39).
The difference is in being soberly abiding in the Holy Spirit or sloppily assuming Christ is absent or not caring how I live moment to moment.
However, in the other account in the Gospels it states that: "it will be as in the days of Noah, when ..... the flood came and took them all away."
The implication here being that it was the "bad" people that were "taken away", whilst the "good" people, i.e. Noah and his family, were safe, and "left".
I am of course familiar with this view. That is some teach that to be taken is to be taken away to be judged and to be left is to be left to be saved. I have considered this in the past and find it less likely.
Though He does compare it with the days of Noah, I do not think He meant that He will take some away somewhere to be judged. Rather the ones taken away are those who correspond to Enoch or Noah. They are taken to Himself to be exempted from the judgment.
You may also note that in the parallel passage in Luke He said two will be in one bed. One in that bed is taken and the other is left. I derive from this that even while we sleep the Lord looks to see if we are in the Holy Spirit.
We must be awake in His presence while doing our duty. And when sleeping we should also look to His grace to keep us in His presence. This requires a kind of breathing prayer to bring our wandering mind and soul back to the Lord Jesus in our spirit.
Some of those who are walking in the Holy Spirit will suddenly be taken and will not be found. This will be a HUGE wake up call to the Christians remaining on the earth. Probably after this taking no Christian left on earth will have any further heart to run after the world.
Some will explain the phenomenon away. Some Jews may then come to believe the Gospels. Antichrist will probably say something like -
"We're glad they're gone. We didn't want them around anyway. Now the planet is ours."
My reasons for saying this may be the case is because Revelation says that Antichrist will blaspheme those who dwell in heaven -
"And he opened his mouth for blasphemies against God, to blaspheme His name and His tabernacle, which tabernacle in heaven." (Rev. 13:6)
You want to be sure to be "left", and not "taken away"!
No. I seek to be one who is taken. Further proofs can be supplied latter.
However, either way, if we are vigilant, we are in the proper attitude however we interpret what taken means.
01 Feb 14
3 edits
Originally posted by CalJustI agree with sonship in that Noah and his family were taken up above the mountians toward heaven by the flood waters safely on the ark. While the wicked were left on earth to be destroyed in the flood waters. God has always taken the righteous, never the wicked. Enoch and Elijah are two examples that come to mind. Also Jesus was taken up into heaven after his resurrection.
This verse talks about somebody being taken, and somebody being left.
Some people (including you) have interpreted this as saying the "good" one is taken, (i.e. raptured) and the "bad" one is left.
However, in the other account in the Gospels it states that: "it will be as in the days of Noah, when ..... the flood came and took them all a ...[text shortened]... nd his family, were safe, and "left".
You want to be sure to be "left", and not "taken away"!
Some versions translate it "swept them all away" because they interpret it as all the people were taken away or swept away to a watery grave. In any case, the idea has to be that the righteous will be saved and the wicked will perish.
04 Feb 14
Originally posted by galveston75Just a note to your reply. When i said that the rapture was mentioned maybe twice in scripture, i wasn't meaning the word. It is the scripture that is used as evidence, to prove it exists.
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259?q=rapture&p=par
Here is a little clearification on the thought of the rapture. Also just a point but the word "rapture" is not in the bible.
For myself, i don't agree with most theories regarding this subject. I don't believe in the great escape theories.
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04 Feb 14
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Pudgenik,
I don't believe in the great escape theories.
Great escape ?
Apparently the little that I wrote went right over your head. I said the rapture is a strategic victory in the spiritual warfare.
From one angle it is escape. But from another equally valid angle it is an ATTACK . It is a strategic spiritual victory that enrages Satan and causes him to opt for his most desperate response.
I bet you never heard this before. So when you argue with Hal Lindsey you argue with his understanding. If you wish to argue with me then you do so concerning what I wrote you.
Rapture is a strategic victory against Satan in the spiritual warfare. Read Revelation 12 very carefully. Pay close attention to verses 10 and 11.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
The Two Witnesses are like bookends. They seem to be the same, but are total opposites. Ones gifts are primarily of a physical nature, like Moses, yet not Moses. The others gifts are of a spiritual nature. Their gifts compliment each other, and can be intertwined. And all that God is, is between them.
04 Feb 14
1 edit
Originally posted by sonshipSonship, i heard what you said. My comment wasn't about what you said. Just my own observations.
Pudgenik,
I don't believe in the great escape theories.
Great escape ?
Apparently the little that I wrote went right over your head. I said the rapture is a strategic victory in the spiritual warfare.
From one angle it is escape. But from another equally valid angle it is an [b]ATTACK . It is a strategic spiritual victo ...[text shortened]... pture is a strategic victory against Satan in the spiritual warfare. Read Revelation 12 .[/b]
None of it went over my head.