1. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    09 Jan '06 10:231 edit
    I ask you, good theists of the world (or at least the forums), how many of you believe in alien abduction? Or flying pigs? Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? Or that Vietnamese people have dug tunnels under the entire surface of the planet?

    What is my point? I'm sure most of you have got it already - you're a clever bunch. I bet most of you don't believe in any of these things. You probably don't believe that I can stop a train using only the muscular power of my right pinky finger.

    Why? Why not believe in these things? Most of you will say something like 'it doesn't make logical sense' or 'we've never seen any of these things'. Pigs can't fly - right? They don't have wings, nor rocket backpacks. They're not terribly aerodynamic, and they are definately heavier than air. We've never seen people stop trains with their fingers before - trains have always run them over. The tendons, muscles and bones in a finger cannot resist the amount of force generated by a train travelling at 120 MPH.

    Now ask yourself how many planets have you seen created? What direct provable evidence do you have that god created the universe? You have precisely the same amount of evidence that god created the world that you have for Santa. But you don't believe in Santa, right? So what? The question I believe you have to ask yourself is 'why do i believe in one thing for which I have no undisputable evidence (god), but not this other thing (santa)?'

    You'll find you cannot make a logical distinction between the two, Santa and god. There is no direct evidence for either. Have you seen god? Talked to him? Has he created a planet before you? There is more evidence for alien abductions than there is for god. Far more. There are 100 billion stars in the galaxy. Let's say half of them have planets. 50 billion. Let's say 0.001% of those have planets suitable for life, that leaves you with 500,000 planets. Let's say that 0.1% of those planets with life have intelligent life - we're still at 500 planets out there with intelligent life. Pretty good odds that intelligent alien life exists.

    So, good people, now is the time to ask myself, what do I believe in? God, satan, santa, and my right pinky, or logic and reason?
  2. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Jan '06 10:26
    I believe the Vietnamese dug those tunnels for their flying pigs.
  3. Donationkirksey957
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    09 Jan '06 10:36
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    I ask you, good theists of the world (or at least the forums), how many of you believe in alien abduction? Or flying pigs? Santa Claus? The tooth fairy? Or that Vietnamese people have dug tunnels under the entire surface of the planet?

    What is my point? I'm sure most of you have got it already - you're a clever bunch. I bet most of you don't be ...[text shortened]... I believe in? God, satan, santa, and my right pinky, or logic and reason?
    I know you will say that it is incumbant for the theist to prove the existence of God, but for the sake of argument, is there anything in the theist's mindset about God that might have importance beyond just the mere existence of God?
  4. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Jan '06 10:38
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I know you will say that it is incumbant for the theist to prove the existence of God, but for the sake of argument, is there anything in the theist's mindset about God that might have importance beyond just the mere existence of God?
    Belief in something that goes beyond reason and logic.

    I think of the surrealists--despite their atheism, they believed that there had to be "more than this".
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    09 Jan '06 10:42
    Someone claimed that God created time but I don't believe God had time for that sort of thing.
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    09 Jan '06 10:44
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    Belief in something that goes beyond reason and logic.

    I think of the surrealists--despite their atheism, they believed that there had to be "more than this".
    Which is exactly why I firmly believe in Santa Clause. He is also much nicer than God, 'cause he gives me presents every year. This year, he brought me a calculator that is also a tool for analyzing assembly code. I had to pay for it myself, and put it in a sock, but when I woke up... it was there. So, santa clause, exist. Don't make fun of that.
  7. Standard memberHalitose
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    09 Jan '06 10:461 edit
    Originally posted by STANG
    Someone claimed that God created time but I don't believe God had time for that sort of thing.
    I don't believe God had time for that sort of thing.

    Why? How would you know? Is this meant to be funny/cute/witty -- or is it just being Austalian?
  8. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    09 Jan '06 10:471 edit
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    I know you will say that it is incumbant for the theist to prove the existence of God, but for the sake of argument, is there anything in the theist's mindset about God that might have importance beyond just the mere existence of God?
    No, not quite, my question is more 'why do you believe in god, when you have no proof of his existance, when you choose not to believe in Santa Claus or the power of my right finger? Is it precisely because you know it cannot be true? In which case, how do you differentiate between what can be true and what cannot? Why do you decide to believe in one thing but not another? If you choose to change your mind, does god stop existing, or Santa start existing, because of that choice. I'll explain that last comment a bit. If you ask any theist 'does god exist?' they'll answer 'yes' without hesitation. If you ask them if santa exists, they'll say 'no' without hesitation. Yet they have no proof, other than their own belief for either of those statements. So, if their belief changes, does that alter the existance of god and / or santa?
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    09 Jan '06 10:51
    Originally posted by Halitose
    [b]I don't believe God had time for that sort of thing.

    Why? How would you know?[/b]
    I think he made a joke there, but with STANG, you can't be sure... :
  10. Donationkirksey957
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    09 Jan '06 10:52
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    No, not quite, my question is more 'why do you believe in god, when you have no proof of his existance, when you choose not to believe in Santa Claus or the power of my right finger? Is it precisely because you know it cannot be true? In which case, how do you differentiate between what can be true and what cannot? Why do you decide to believe ...[text shortened]... ts. So, if their belief changes, does that alter the existance of god and / or santa?
    See, I know a lot of theists who having been asked if God exists would indeed hesitate. Many theists do indeed doubt. I see this as healthy.
  11. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Jan '06 10:561 edit
    Originally posted by Halitose
    Why? How would you know? Is this meant to be funny/cute/witty -- or is it just being Austalian?
    Do you have something against Australians?

    Do you understand his joke?
  12. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    09 Jan '06 11:06
    Originally posted by kirksey957
    See, I know a lot of theists who having been asked if God exists would indeed hesitate. Many theists do indeed doubt. I see this as healthy.
    So that is what? Belief within proviso's? Do these people really believe? To believe is surely to know it is true without question...
  13. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    09 Jan '06 11:08
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    To believe is surely to know it is true without question...
    I'm not too sure about that. Belief can also be based on intuition.
  14. Standard memberscottishinnz
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    09 Jan '06 11:19
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    I'm not too sure about that. Belief can also be based on intuition.
    Surely, if you don't "know" god exists (as does RBHILL) then you are an agnostic, rather than an out and out theist? As in (from Answers.com)

    often 'Faith' (Christianity). The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
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    09 Jan '06 11:30
    Originally posted by scottishinnz
    Surely, if you don't "know" god exists (as does RBHILL) then you are an agnostic, rather than an out and out theist? As in (from Answers.com)

    often 'Faith' (Christianity). The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will.
    The theist and atheist mistake their belief for knowledge. That doesn't make it knowledge. The agnostic doesn't. The gnostic is the agnostic of his time. And I know everything. I am the creator and there can be no disputing this post.





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