Originally posted by lucifershammerI was going to reply something like "Do you really think 6-7 year old children can take full moral responsibility for their actions??", but I see you have edited your post a little. 🙂 So back to the question - exactly how much responsibility must they be able to take, and how complete does their understanding of right and wrong have to be?
In this context, I'm using it in the sense of an age at which a person can take [full?] moral responsibility for his/her actions.
Originally posted by no1marauderNo1: you raise some excellent questions and points, relative to the conclusions to which one is logically drawn with these premises.
It's a very strange idea; given the numbers in the article I mentioned, then most people are never absolved of original sin. Jesus' dying on the Cross can only possibly benefit a minority of Mankind. It's seems to me that for order for RCC doctrine to make sense, either the idea of ensoulment at conception has got to go or the idea that Jesus died for Ma ...[text shortened]... oes. They don't seem to work together given the physical realities of pre-embyro mortality.
This has been addressed in the "Who give(s) life?" thread. The Bible clearly reveals biological life beginning at conception, but human life beginning at birth, i.e., away from the womb, at which a soul is breathed into the body/mind.
There are views which attempt a superficial reading of Scripture, but they end up with all kids of trouble, as you have narrowed in on here. Good posts.
Originally posted by no1marauderIt does not make sense to speak of original sin being "absolved" as it isn't a personal sin. (Note to Nordlys as well)
It's a very strange idea; given the numbers in the article I mentioned, then most people are never absolved of original sin. Jesus' dying on the Cross can only possibly benefit a minority of Mankind. It's seems to me that for order for RCC doctrine to make sense, either the idea of ensoulment at conception has got to go or the idea that Jesus died for Ma ...[text shortened]... oes. They don't seem to work together given the physical realities of pre-embyro mortality.
The idea that Jesus' sacrifice of Himself on the Cross was sufficient for the forgiveness of all of mankind's sins does not automatically mean that all of mankind would be capable of attaining that grace. It does mean, however, that every person capable of Hell is also capable of Heaven.
Originally posted by no1marauderBut God, being omniscient, must know about them, and I can't see how it could be a hinder for him that they are not baptized. If baptism is necessary, why couldn't it be done in Heaven? And besides, there must be some other reason that they can't go to Heaven, because according to lucifershammer children (many of whom are baptized) won't be able to go to Heaven either before they reach the "age of reason".
They'd have to be baptized to be absolved of Original Sin. Besides, since 60% of zygotes don't even survive long enough to cause a missed menstrual period, no one (including "them"😉 even knows they ever existed.
Originally posted by vistesdIf the soul is the essence of a particular human being, transmigration would only be possible together with mutation. Transmigramutation?
Re the “transmutation” of souls—I think the phrase you’re after is [b]transmigration of souls. Transmutation of souls would be an interesting concept, though.[/b]
Originally posted by NordlysI said nothing about baptised children before the age of reason. They can, indeed, go to Heaven.
But God, being omniscient, must know about them, and I can't see how it could be a hinder for him that they are not baptized. If baptism is necessary, why couldn't it be done in Heaven? And besides, there must be some other reason that they can't go to Heaven, because according to lucifershammer children (many of whom are baptized) won't be able to go to Heaven either before they reach the "age of reason".
If baptism is necessary, why couldn't it be done in Heaven?
Because baptism, as a sacrament, can only be administered by a human being.
That said, there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that prevents God from saving unbaptised children - just that we don't know how He can do it.
Originally posted by lucifershammerSince when is Limbo official RCC doctrine?
I said nothing about baptised children before the age of reason. They can, indeed, go to Heaven.
[b]If baptism is necessary, why couldn't it be done in Heaven?
Because baptism, as a sacrament, can only be administered by a human being.
That said, there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that prevents God from saving unbaptised children - just that we don't know how He can do it.[/b]
Originally posted by NordlysI don’t know a lot about it, but the version in Hasidic Judaism seems to be something like the soul, in between incarnations, reflects on its history and chooses the human conditions under which to be reincarnated the next time, in order to continue a progressive journey of spiritual development. So, that does seem to involve some sort of “transmutation” perhaps. (The main difference between the term “transmigration of souls” and reincarnation per se seems to be that the human soul never reincarnates as, say, a tree frog.)
If the soul is the essence of a particular human being, transmigration would only be possible together with mutation. Transmigramutation?
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Then as far as official Church doctrine goes unbaptised children and presumably the majority of "human beings" who perish as pre-embyros go to Hell unless God does something that is not explainable consistent with Church doctrine.
EDIT: I'm aware of Limbo's intellectual history (somewhat) but it is outside official Church doctrine.
Originally posted by vistesdInteresting. This sounds a lot like what anthroposophists believe about reincarnation. Maybe Rudolf Steiner got some of his ideas from Hasidic Judaism?
I don’t know a lot about it, but the version in Hasidic Judaism seems to be something like the soul, in between incarnations, reflects on its history and chooses the human conditions under which to be reincarnated the next time, in order to continue a progressive journey of spiritual development.