There is a god #2

Originally posted by wolfgang59
At least part of this is circular is it not?

god created Man to "liberate the Human race" ... ? and "return home" ... ?

I'm really after so kind of rational reasoning why an all powerful entity would create us.

Maybe it would help if your criteria for a satisfactory answer were stated. (You do say "all powerful." )

For example, one criterion would be that the reason for creating something has to be the satisfaction of a need. Because this reason could be taken to imply a deficiency, it would affect the attributes imputed to the creator. It would also imply that the creator can change (from unsatisfied to satisfied).

So... there is problem if there is an unspoken set of attributes that have to be maintained while coming up with the reason.

But the exercise will help identify them.

How about we imagine this: We'll assume creation of humans occurred for a reason. Try out some reasons, and see what impact those reasons have on the attributes of the creator. If the reasons destroy some essential attribute, we identify that attribute, reject that reason, and move on to another reason, iterating until we either settle on a reason that is least disturbing to our ideas about the creator.

So, suppose the reason is, we were created for there to be something the creator could make happy, but the creator found that happiness is only possible if there is some unhappiness. The more of one, the more of the other.

If this doesn't work for you, why not? Maybe your answer to THIS question will help define an attribute of the creator that has to be maintained.

Originally posted by sonhouse
Here is some food for thought:

If your god is in charge of evolution and it is an ongoing process, then the idea of humanity being the crown of creation (a really anthropocentric idea) then your god is preparing the Earth for something better (it wouldn't take much).

How many times have I told you there is no evolution. God is against evolution and for adaptation.

Debate: Reasons for creating Man

IMAGE and DOMINION - Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

Man was created to EXPRESS God the Invisible Uncreated Eternal Being.
Man was created to exercise deputy authority over God's creation. The "fish ... cattle ... creeping things" are merely a representative sample. Probably all of the universe is included in eternity.

God decided BEFORE the creation of the universe to have SONS who share His life and nature. He intended before the foundation of the world that human beings would enjoy "SONSHIP".

" Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ ... Even as He chose us in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD to be holy and without blemish before Him in love, Predestinating us unto SONSHIP through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ..." (Eph. 1:4,5)

The expression "before the foundation of the world":

1.) The decision of God to have SONS partaking of His holy nature preceeded His laying "the foundation of the world", ie. before His creation of the universe.

2.) It was based upon this plan that it became necessary for God to create a realm, the universe, in which to carry out this plan that creatures, MAN, would partake of His holy nature.

God intended to indwell this man in a corporate way, for the "building" of His living dwelling place.

"Thus says Jehovah, Heaven is my throne, And the earth is a footstool for My feet. Where is the house that you will build for Me, And where is the place of My rest ? For all these things My hand hasa made, And so all these things have come into being, declares Jehovah.

But to this kind of man will I look, to hm who is poor and of a contrite spirit, and who trembles at My word. " (Isa. 66:1-2)

The physical temple of God, the house of God in Jerusalem, is only a type. It is only a symbol. God seeks a resting place within man. That is why He says "Where is the house ...? To this kind of MAN will I look ..."

God looks to dwell in a mingled and blended way in a corporate group of human beings. This is His REST. And this is man's full salvation. This is God's domicile and man's glorification.

He looks to a kind of man. He looks to man who is opened to God as an opened vessel. That is a man who regards both God's authority and love.

All the things that exist came into existence because of God's plan -

"You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of Your will they were, and were created." (Rev. 4:11)

This strongly implies that it is because of God's eternal purpose that all things were created - "And where is the place of My rest? For all these things have my hands made, and so all these things have come into being..."

God has two great activites CREATION and BUILDING.

Creation is to produce the environment for His eternal plan.
Building is to build God into man and build man into God - to dispense His holy and divine nature into man for a corporate aggregate expression of humanity mingled with God.

Originally posted by jaywill

Debate: Reasons for creating Man

IMAGE and DOMINION - [b] Genesis 1:26

"And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the cattle and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth."

Man was create ...[text shortened]... for a corporate aggregate expression of humanity mingled with God.[/b]

so what was the universe and all the animals doing without the deputy authority of man for the billions of years before man's arrival?

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
so what was the universe and all the animals doing without the deputy authority of man for the billions of years before man's arrival?

It is a good question.

In my opinion the unfolding of the eternal purpose of God is progressive. From my reading of Genesis the phrase - "Let THEM have dominion ..," given other data in the Bible, indicates that the dominion was under another creature or creatures before man came upon the scene.

Most readers of the Bible coming to it with little pre-conceived opinion, I believe, will have this question:

"But WAIT. If God created Eden as a paradise, WHY was there this lying serpent there ? This does not make sense. That is a Paradise with someone opposed to the Creator, slandering the Creator, tempting man away from the Creator, causing man to doubt the Creator's heart and His word.

Where did this evil serpent come from? And why this "tree of the knowledge of good and evil?" "

There seems something left over from a previous economy. Something seems left over from a previous order of things.

In my opinion the history of the earth and the solar system possibly reveals some residue evidence of a previous administration. That was under another being who rebelled and deceived minions to follow him.

Then God created His hearts desire and said "Let THEM have dominion" a new creature of the dust of the earth, not an angel. Not an angelic being is man but a dusty being who will be united in life with God (the tree of life).

The details of the previous world are extremely sketchy. Possibly it was so foreign in nature that we would have difficulty understanding it. Which fact of course kills the pride of some people. I mean that we do not know everything is considered terrible.

"The things that are hidden belong to Jehovah our God; but the things that are revealed, to us and our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29)

Originally posted by jaywill
It is a good question.

In my opinion the unfolding of the eternal purpose of God is progressive. From my reading of Genesis the phrase - [b]"Let THEM have dominion ..," given other data in the Bible, indicates that the dominion was under another creature or creatures before man came upon the scene.

Most readers of the Bible coming to it with ...[text shortened]... hildren forever, that we may do all the words of this law." (Deuteronomy 29:29) [/b][/b]

interesting concept, but it undermines your other argument that the universe was fine tuned for man. with this thought, you introduce man as the next authority, the replacement for that which came before and the original design of the universe would have been fine tuned for that previous authority.

Originally posted by JS357
Maybe it would help if your criteria for a satisfactory answer were stated. (You do say "all powerful." )

For example, one criterion would be that the reason for creating something has to be the satisfaction of a need. Because this reason could be taken to imply a deficiency, it would affect the attributes imputed to the creator. It would also imply that th ...[text shortened]... wer to THIS question will help define an attribute of the creator that has to be maintained.

Yes that would be a sensible approach.

I agree that the obvious (and only one that I can see) answer is that creation was to fulfil god's need and was therefore a selfish act.

So we have a needy, selfish god.

just as well he doesnt exist!

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
so what was the universe and all the animals doing without the deputy authority of man for the billions of years before man's arrival?

The universe only existed 5 days before man existed and the animals only a day or two.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Yes that would be a sensible approach.

I agree that the obvious (and only one that I can see) answer is that creation was to fulfil god's need and was therefore a selfish act.

So we have a needy, selfish god.

just as well he doesnt exist!

So we have a needy, selfish god.

In Christ, Whom the Bible teaches is God incarnate, the Son of God, we see a being who wanted nothing for Himself but wanted everything for the will of Him who sent Him.

His redemptive death on the cross to carry up your sins in His body to receive the just judgment on your behalf, testifies to His selfless love.

It is because of this humbling of Himself, taking the form of a slave, and being obedient unto death, that caused His qualification to be Lord of all.

"Christ Jesus, Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider being equal with God a treasure to be grasped.

But emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, becomming in the likeness of men;

And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled Himself, becomming obedient even unto death, and that the death of a cross.

THEREFORE ... also God has highly exalted Him and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father." (Phil. 2:5b-11)

Christ, the God/Man, has demonstrated His utter selflessness in His unique and utter humbling under the Father's will. So in the Triune God we have the perfect emblem of Authority as well as the perfect emblem of self sacrificing Submission.

Originally posted by wolfgang59
Yes that would be a sensible approach.

I agree that the obvious (and only one that I can see) answer is that creation was to fulfil god's need and was therefore a selfish act.

So we have a needy, selfish god.

just as well he doesnt exist!

just as well he doesnt exist!

You can explain the 800 pound golden gorilla in the middle of the living room of human history - Jesus of Nazareth.

Maybe you're dead wrong and Christ is God become a man as He taught. Maybe you're completely deceived and this One, predicted by the prophets to come, by centries before, is our Lord and Savior.

I certainly confess Him to be so gladly.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
interesting concept, but it undermines your other argument that the universe was fine tuned for man. with this thought, you introduce man as the next authority, the replacement for that which came before and the original design of the universe would have been fine tuned for that previous authority.

No it doesn't. The two matters are not mutually exclusive.

Originally posted by jaywill
No it doesn't. The two matters are not mutually exclusive.

they are logically exclusive. you have a creation prior to humans given the task of being the authority over the animals (and presumably the plants as well). also, according to the bible, other celestial beings have "sonship" with god (those who fathered the nephilim are referred to as the sons of god) and assuming these sons of god were the original deputies over creation, it logically follows that the universe would have been fine tuned for them.

your theory goes on the say that this first authority rebelled and presumably they were cast out and humans were created to replace their role. so was the universe tweaked after the rebellion to be fine-tuned for humans?

further complication arise. given gods rage, wouldn't it follow that after the rebellion/fall/casting out of humans, that he would replace us as well?