I interpret "spirituality" to mean those metaphysical aspects of our human condition ~ the "human spirit" perhaps, or what religious people might refer to as our "souls" ~ where our capacity - as unique individuals - for abstraction allows us to question who we are and affect one another in non-physical ways.
This is why "religion" is a major part of "spirituality". However, for most religious people, their belief in a supreme being is seen as the be-all and end-all of "spirituality".
But to suggest that "spirituality" is ONLY stuff like "religion" [and other beliefs/conjecture related to supernatural beings and phenomena, is - to me - a kind of rhetorical sleight of hand.
This is because I would contend that 'belief in gods' and 'a lack of belief in gods' are both the product of the same human cognitive capacities and consciousness and are, in effect, two sides of the same "human spirit" coin.
Yes, this can maybe be rebutted by using a dictionary, but I think ~ for the sake of exploring the issue ~ rejigging the scope of the term "spirituality" creates a prism through which the actual origin of the 'belief in gods' versus 'lack of belief in gods' dichotomy can be recognized.
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@fmf saidThank you, Jack Frost McSpiderFace.
I interpret "spirituality" to mean those metaphysical aspects of our human condition ~ the "human spirit" perhaps, or what religious people might refer to as our "souls" ~ where our capacity - as unique individuals - for abstraction allows us to question who we are and affect one another in non-physical ways.
This is why "religion" is a major part of "spirituality". However, ...[text shortened]... e actual origin of the 'belief in gods' versus 'lack of belief in gods' dichotomy can be recognized.
08 Apr 21
@bigdoggproblem said"Metaphysical things" are not really things we do or don't "believe in". We all have access to them. It simply refers to things that cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality. i.e. abstractions. As I read somewhere: Metaphysics is the philosophy of existence, being and perceived reality.
@FMF
I like to think that even people who do not believe in metaphysical things, at all, can practice spirituality. [I am such a person.]
08 Apr 21
@bigdoggproblem said"Metaphysics is a type of philosophy or study that uses broad concepts to help define reality and our understanding of it. Metaphysical studies generally seek to explain inherent or universal elements of reality which are not easily discovered or experienced in our everyday life. As such, it is concerned with explaining the features of reality that exist beyond the physical world and our immediate senses. Metaphysics, therefore, uses logic based on the meaning of human terms, rather than on a logic tied to human sense perception of the objective world. Metaphysics might include the study of the nature of the human mind, the definition and meaning of existence, or the nature of space, time, and/or causality." ~ from the pbs website
@FMF
I like to think that even people who do not believe in metaphysical things, at all, can practice spirituality. [I am such a person.]
08 Apr 21
@bigdoggproblem saidI think science is good for establishing what time is and what space is, but I think metaphysics is about how we perceive them, how they affect us etc.
@FMF
it seems odd to study the nature of things such as space and time from such a perspective. Isn't science the better tool for such?
08 Apr 21
@fmf saidI’d always thought of it as phenomenon that conventional physics hasn’t been able to delineate and quantify by empirical methodology, yet.
I think science is good for establishing what time is and what space is, but I think metaphysics is about how we perceive them, how they affect us etc.
But that idea got a lot murkier the more we delved into quantum physics and now they think that a particle collider might have put us on the trail of a fifth force. Metaphysics may become the physics of the gaps.
08 Apr 21
@bigdoggproblem saidI don’t see how the spiritual can exist with the metaphysical, although I can see why some people would like to hold that it does as I see it satisfying the need for a metaphysical dynamic without the intellectual concession that it exists.
@FMF
I like to think that even people who do not believe in metaphysical things, at all, can practice spirituality. [I am such a person.]
08 Apr 21
@kevin-eleven saidFor someone who often expresses disdain at the posting of others not meeting some unwritten but holistically acknowledged standard of competence and quality, you certainly seem to frequently enjoy being an utter dick.
Thank you, Jack Frost McSpiderFace.
08 Apr 21
@fmf saidI think clear definitions are important to facilitate fluid discussion on this topic.
"Metaphysical things" are not really things we do or don't "believe in". We all have access to them. It simply refers to things that cannot be reached through objective studies of material reality. i.e. abstractions. As I read somewhere: Metaphysics is the philosophy of existence, being and perceived reality.
An example is the background disagreement between Ghost of a Duke and I on the existence of altruism. I completely agree with him based on one interpretation of a definition, but disagree on another.
@fmf saidAgain isn’t that just a definition? And if I might say so, not a particularly good one.
I think science is good for establishing what time is and what space is, but I think metaphysics is about how we perceive them, how they affect us etc.
How we think and perceive (the universe or our place in it) is pure science, cognitive science. “Metaphysics” is beyond science?
08 Apr 21
@divegeester saidI don't deny that I am tinkering with the definition of "Spirituality" but it is for the sake of argument.
I think clear definitions are important to facilitate fluid discussion on this topic.
Do you agree that that 'belief in gods' and 'lack of belief in gods' are both the product of the same human cognitive capacities, the same curiosity, the same inclination to conceptualize one's self, and find purpose and meaning?
08 Apr 21
@divegeester saidAs far as I am aware, 'science' has still got a long way to go to explain human consciousness.
How we think and perceive (the universe or our place in it) is pure science, cognitive science. “Metaphysics” is beyond science?
08 Apr 21
@fmf saidThe general secular understanding of belief in gods/unbelief in god, yes I agree. However I hold the exception of “given faith” as described in the bible.
Do you agree that that 'belief in gods' and 'lack of belief in gods' are both the product of the same human cognitive capacities, the same curiosity, the same inclination to conceptualize one's self, and find purpose and meaning?