Thought provoking quote

Originally posted by darthmix
Well, sure, but that's not at all settled.

I wish someone would come up with some incontrovertible evidence one way or the other so we could end this debate.

Originally posted by josephw
I wish someone would come up with some incontrovertible evidence one way or the other so we could end this debate.

The burden of proof is on you. So why don't you get to work?

Eh. The folks who believe in God have defined him such that it doesn't matter what evidence is found or not found. As long as God is "everything, everywhere" and as long as his nature and motives are defined as "not for us to know" then the concept of God will be immune to the actual state of the world or anything that happens in it. He can be whatever you want, he can fill whatever role in an argument you require, and nothing that ever happens could possibly indicate that he doesn't exist. It's convenient.

Originally posted by darthmix
Eh. The folks who believe in God have defined him such that it doesn't matter what evidence is found or not found. As long as God is "everything, everywhere" and as long as his nature and motives are defined as "not for us to know" then the concept of God will be immune to the actual state of the world or anything that happens in it. He can be whatever you ...[text shortened]... nothing that ever happens could possibly indicate that he doesn't exist. It's convenient.

In that case, the term "god" is completely incoherent. We need not concern ourselves with it any further.

Originally posted by rwingett
In that case, the term "god" is completely incoherent. We need not concern ourselves with it any further.

not so fast...

An insane man with an axe might not be coherent, however it would be unwise to ignore the possibilities of injury from him...

Originally posted by josephw
Good one!

Another which came first the chicken or the egg question. 🙂
Kelly

Originally posted by rwingett
In that case, the term "god" is completely incoherent. We need not concern ourselves with it any further.

You're just noticing that now?

God is the one who knows. He's the one who has power. He's the one who gives meaning. It's clear to us that WE don't know, WE don't have power, WE don't have direct access to the meaning, so we desperately want to believe there's someone out there who does have these things, and that he's looking out for us. In that way, the concept of God is able to meet a deep, desperate existenetial need, even though it doesn't have any actual substance. It doesn't provide answers; it just insists that there are answers, and that alone is comforting.

The trouble is that the concept only has power from our perspective - the perspective of those who don't have the knowledge, power, etc. If you look at it from God's perspective, everything completely breaks down. Because if you're God, how do you really KNOW you're God? How do you know for sure that there isn't some higher being, infinitely greater than yourself, before whom YOU are powerless, and who unknown to you determines the actual meaning of your existence? For all you know all your omnipotent wisdom - whatever that is, whatever it tells you - could be an illusion. So, it turns out that if you're God, you really know just as much about God as your average agnostic on earth. Nothing.

Which is irrelevant to a believer, of course, because it's not useful to him. God fulfills the role the believer needs him to, and the believer has no need to think about the issue any more deeply than that.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
not so fast...

An insane man with an axe might not be coherent, however it would be unwise to ignore the possibilities of injury from him...

The concept of an insane man with an axe is a very coherent one. It is not necessary that the insane man be coherent himself.

Originally posted by darthmix
You're just noticing that now?

God is the one who knows. He's the one who has power. He's the one who gives meaning. It's clear to us that WE don't know, WE don't have power, WE don't have direct access to the meaning, so we desperately want to believe there's someone out there who does have these things, and that he's looking out for us. In that way, th ...[text shortened]... d the believer has no need to think about the issue any more deeply than that.

A being that is omniscient is not capable of being mistaken about his omniscience. As for whether god is nothing more than a giant placebo effect, that's entirely possible.

Originally posted by rwingett
Whodey asked if our "reality" is shaped by our beliefs. My answer was to make a clear distinction between reality and perception. Reality exists independent from our perception.

Forgive my sloppy use of words. What I meant is our perception or reality is shaped by our beliefs and not our actual reality is shaped by our beliefs.

Originally posted by rwingett
A being that is omniscient is not capable of being mistaken about his omniscience.

That's my point - God, if he exists, is not omniscient, and therefore can't be considered God. The premise refutes itself.

Suppose on the one hand you have a being who actually is all-powerful and all-knowing. Then on the other hand you have a being who only thinks he is those things, because another, much greater being has created him and inserted him into some kind of existence which leads him to believe that. The artifice is totally convincing, such that his experience of God-hood is identical to that of the first being, who actually is almighty and omniscient.

The problem is that if you're inside this scenario, there is absolutely no way of knowing for sure which of these two beings you are. It seems like you're being A, all-powerful and all-knowing, but you still MIGHT be being B, chump of the universe. It doesn't matter what your experience of omniscience is; you still can't know for sure that a much greater being didn't construct it just to fool you. Since our "God" does not know that he's really God, and can never know it for sure, he can't really be omniscient.

Originally posted by darthmix
[b]You're just noticing that now?

God is the one who knows. He's the one who has power. He's the one who gives meaning. It's clear to us that WE don't know,

Madening is'nt it?

Sing it!! "Oh Lord its hard to be humble, when your perfect in every way."

Originally posted by whodey
Forgive my sloppy use of words. What I meant is our perception or reality is shaped by our beliefs and not our actual reality is shaped by our beliefs.

Is our perception of reality shaped by our beliefs? Of course. It almost seems a tautology.

Originally posted by rwingett
Is our perception of reality shaped by our beliefs? Of course. It almost seems a tautology.

Indeed. However, knowing this drives home the importance of our beliefs. For example, some would argue that believing in God or not believing in God has little significance in general to our existence, however, as we can plainly see this is the farthest thing from the truth. Belief or disbelief in a God will shape our future and present existence for the better or worse.

Originally posted by whodey
Indeed. However, knowing this drives home the importance of our beliefs. For example, some would argue that believing in God or not believing in God has little significance in general to our existence, however, as we can plainly see this is the farthest thing from the truth. Belief or disbelief in a God will shape our future and present existence for the better or worse.

Belief or disbelief in god will shape our future actions and attitudes, but it plays a very limited role in shaping the conditions of our future.