1. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 18:01
    Is the major problem with the evolution theory is that it contradicts the Bible?

    Lets hear what a famous religious scholar and philosopher has to say about it:

    "...What the Torah writes about the Account of Creation is not all to be taken literally, as believed by the masses" (Guide to the Perplexed II:29, Maimonides).

    Well?
  2. Hmmm . . .
    Joined
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    17 Dec '07 18:121 edit
    Originally posted by Retrovirus
    Is the major problem with the evolution theory is that it contradicts the Bible?

    Lets hear what a famous religious scholar and philosopher has to say about it:

    "...What the Torah writes about the Account of Creation is not all to be taken literally, as believed by the masses" (Guide to the Perplexed II:29, Maimonides).

    Well?
    A story:

    One Shabbos afternoon, Reb Reuven called me into is study. He was sitting behind his desk and motioned me to take the chair across from him. A volume of the Zohar was lying open in front of him.

    “Do you know what the Zohar is?” he asked.

    “Of course,” I said. “It is a mystical commentary on Torah written by Moshe deLeon, a thirteenth century Spanish kabbalist who....”

    “Nonsense!” he yelled at me, half rising out of his chair. “The Zohar isn’t just a commentary; it’s a Torah all by itself. It is a new Torah, a new telling of the last Torah. You do know what Torah is, don’t you?”

    Suspecting that I didn’t, and afraid to invoke his wrath a second time, I waited silently, certain that he would answer his own question. I was not disappointed.

    “Torah is story. God is story. Israel is story. You, my university-educated soon-to-be a liberal pain in the ass rabbi, are a story. We are all stories! We are all Torahs!...Listen, Rami,” Reuven said in a softer voice. “Torah starts with the word b’reisheet, ‘Once upon a time!’”

    —Rabbi Rami Shapiro, Hasidic Tales

    🙂

    EDIT: Reb Reuven was the rabbi at an Orthodox kibbutz where Shapiro, a Reconstructionist rabbi, spent some time.
  3. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 18:34
    Originally posted by Retrovirus
    Is the major problem with the evolution theory is that it contradicts the Bible?

    Lets hear what a famous religious scholar and philosopher has to say about it:

    "...What the Torah writes about the Account of Creation is not all to be taken literally, as believed by the masses" (Guide to the Perplexed II:29, Maimonides).

    Well?
    The theory of evolution contradicts reality.

    Space, matter, and time didn't just simply appear out of nowhere. The fact that everything exists is evidence that it all had a beginning.
    And since it is irrational to suggest that everything came from nothing, the only conclusion is that everything was created.

    Some believe that after God created everything he then set into motion the evolutionary process. But that contradicts the creation account.

    Besides, who is this famous scholar? Was he around when everything came into existence?

    There are enough famous scholars around, and they contradict each other about everything. Fortunately we can believe God.
  4. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 18:45
    Originally posted by vistesd
    A story:

    One Shabbos afternoon, Reb Reuven called me into is study. He was sitting behind his desk and motioned me to take the chair across from him. A volume of the Zohar was lying open in front of him.

    “Do you know what the Zohar is?” he asked.

    “Of course,” I said. “It is a mystical commentary on Torah written by Moshe deLeon, a th ...[text shortened]... was the rabbi at an Orthodox kibbutz where Shapiro, a Reconstructionist rabbi, spent some time.
    What's a story? God is a story? Is God just telling stories? Is there nothing to believe in? No foundational facts? Only stories to tell until everything fades into meaninglessness?

    Why is it so surprising to people that God is the author of fact and not fiction? Why would God make it so difficult to comprehend what he means?

    It seems to me that if there is no foundational truth then it's all a lie.

    I could go on and on. Do you see what I mean?
  5. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    17 Dec '07 18:46
    Originally posted by josephw
    The theory of evolution contradicts reality.

    Space, matter, and time didn't just simply appear out of nowhere. The fact that everything exists is evidence that it all had a beginning.
    And since it is irrational to suggest that everything came from nothing, the only conclusion is that everything was created.

    Some believe that after God created everyth ...[text shortened]... holars around, and they contradict each other about everything. Fortunately we can believe God.
    If you knew anything about evolution you'd know that it does not address the origin of space, matter and time. It does not even address the origin of life itself. It only addresses the evolution of species over time through the process of natural selection.
  6. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 19:06
    Originally posted by rwingett
    If you knew anything about evolution you'd know that it does not address the origin of space, matter and time. It does not even address the origin of life itself. It only addresses the evolution of species over time through the process of natural selection.
    I know that.

    But it seems to me that without an answer as to the origin of the things evolution seeks to explain it is enviable as a theory.
  7. Donationrwingett
    Ming the Merciless
    Royal Oak, MI
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    17 Dec '07 19:16
    Originally posted by josephw
    I know that.

    But it seems to me that without an answer as to the origin of the things evolution seeks to explain it is enviable as a theory.
    Enviable? As in 'subject to envy'?
  8. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Dec '07 19:56
    Originally posted by josephw
    What's a story? God is a story? Is God just telling stories? Is there nothing to believe in? No foundational facts? Only stories to tell until everything fades into meaninglessness?

    Why is it so surprising to people that God is the author of fact and not fiction? Why would God make it so difficult to comprehend what he means?

    It seems to me that if th ...[text shortened]... is no foundational truth then it's all a lie.

    I could go on and on. Do you see what I mean?
    I didn’t say God is telling stories. I didn’t say, nor do I believe, that God is the author.

    Does any story have to be fact in order to not be a lie? Is J.R.R. Tolkien a liar if there are no hobbits or elves? Is a biographical novel, like The Agony and the Ecstasy, just a lie because it weaves fiction with fact? Is any mythological story that also contains some factual content still nothing more than a lie?

    Why does a story have to be factual in order to be meaningful? Are there no meaningful lessons in The Lord of the Rings? Telling stories to illustrate what people believe are fundamental existential truths—or to wonder about what might be—is a quintessential human activity.

    Would a simple newspaper account of your own life capture the full story? Would it capture your feelings, your dreams, your imagination, your loves, your sufferings, your wonderment at being alive?

    To me, treating the Biblical stories like textbook or a newspaper accounts diminishes them. They are what David S. Ariel called “the sacred myths of Israel”—and the collectors/compilers kept the good, the bad and the ugly. (I’m speaking of the Hebrew Scripture here, the Tanach, what you call the “Old Testament”.) Biblical literalism/historicism is by and large a Protestant Christian phenomenon, not a Jewish one.
  9. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 20:03
    Originally posted by josephw
    What's a story? God is a story? Is God just telling stories? Is there nothing to believe in? No foundational facts? Only stories to tell until everything fades into meaninglessness?

    Why is it so surprising to people that God is the author of fact and not fiction? Why would God make it so difficult to comprehend what he means?

    It seems to me that if th ...[text shortened]... is no foundational truth then it's all a lie.

    I could go on and on. Do you see what I mean?
    The word "story" does not imply that something is fictitious. Indeed, you write that "God is the author of fact"... if God is an author, then God is telling stories.
  10. Hmmm . . .
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    17 Dec '07 20:40
    Originally posted by castlerook
    The word "story" does not imply that something is fictitious. Indeed, you write that "God is the author of fact"... if God is an author, then God is telling stories.
    Good point. As I recall, however, you and I tend to see things like myth, symbolism, allegory in religion as being valid as such—whether a given story has a basis in fact or not.

    For example, in his book Wanderings: A History of the Jews Chaim Potok suggests that the Exodus story probably had a factual basis in a small, ragtag band of Israelites slipping out of Egypt, but that it was expanded into mythic proportions; and it is also a symbolic allegory about escape from bondage in mitzraim (literally, “narrow places”, the Hebrew word used in the story to represent Egypt, or perhaps vice versa). In my own consciousness, for example, what are the mitzraim? What is Pharaoh? Do I have the courage and stamina to wander in “the desert”? Etc., etc.

    Jewish exegesis, called midrash (from d’rash, to search out) tends to seek out all the possible interpretations, on many levels. The words of the Torah, the p’shat, or plain-reading, are not the Torah itself, but the garments of Torah; the real Torah lies underneath, and is multi-vocal.

    _______________________________

    Rav Hisda said: “To learn Torah…it is better to go to several teachers. The many different explanations will help to give you understanding.” (tractate Avodah Zarah)

    “The words of Torah are fruitful and multiply!” (tractate Hagigah)

    “He who toils in Torah and discovers in it new meanings that are true contributes new Torah which is treasured by the congregation of Israel.” (the Zohar)

    “A place has been left for me to labor in it [the Torah].” (tractate Hullin)

    —Talmudic quotes from The Talmudic Anthology, Louis I. Newman, ed.

    _______________________________

    [Retrovirus can correct any errors in my comments here.]
  11. Standard membershavixmir
    Guppy poo
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    17 Dec '07 21:00
    Originally posted by josephw
    The theory of evolution contradicts reality.

    God damn.
    Listening to you is like having Haley's comet rammed up my arse. Time and time a-bloody-gain.
  12. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 23:18
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Enviable? As in 'subject to envy'?
    That was dumb of me.

    How about unviable?
  13. Standard memberRed Night
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    17 Dec '07 23:21
    I do not believe in creationism. However, it is worth pointing out that evolution is just a story as well...one that keeps evolving.
  14. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 23:28
    Originally posted by castlerook
    The word "story" does not imply that something is fictitious. Indeed, you write that "God is the author of fact"... if God is an author, then God is telling stories.
    So, God says one thing and means another?
    In other words, "Thus saith the Lord" really means nothing since He really doesn't mean what He says.
  15. Joined
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    17 Dec '07 23:30
    Originally posted by shavixmir
    God damn.
    Listening to you is like having Haley's comet rammed up my arse. Time and time a-bloody-gain.
    Evolution is to me as creationism is to you.

    I know the feeling!😕
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