to the non believers...

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
what? you want a medal for "believing" the obvious? people don't need faith in gravity they know gravity exists every time they take a dump and hear the splash.

the hole point of a religion is to have faith, to believe something even though you are not sure. if proof would exist of god most will accept his existence although some people will always believe what they want even in the face proof to the contrary. like creationists.

From the first posting of the thread "to the non believers..." I quote:
"what would it actually take god to do to make you accept he/she is real?"
and that was the question I answered.

If you are a believer, then this thread is not for you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I don't particularly want a god at all, but if I have to have one, I would like a soooper daddy. Who wouldn't? Why do you want to work for your salvation? I thought that you claimed that the very uniqueness of Christianity was that you didn't have to work for it. Make up your mind already.
As far as I can tell from what some Christians tell me, you inclu ...[text shortened]... e to not believe in him? Thats not giving us free will, thats deliberate malicious deception.

oh so you are dictating terms and ultimatums? show your face you chikin god or i will not believe in you. its like me promissing you i will give you 1 million dollars if you show up next month at a certain spot. but you want to see the money before you consider coming. well i am giving the money and if you have faith you will come under my terms and if you don't you will either miss out on 1 mill or you will save a pointless trip. you won't know for sure of either.

it is slightly different with religion though. if god doesn't exist, when you die, you cease to exist also so you won't know that you believed in a non-existent god. if he does exist and you didn't believed in him wouldn't you fell rather stupid?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
From the first posting of the thread "to the non believers..." I quote:
"what would it actually take god to do to make you accept he/she is real?"
and that was the question I answered.

If you are a believer, then this thread is not for you.

actually that reply was kinda directed at the thread creator too. god doesn't force people to believe in him. he is offering a product and is making terms on which you may get that product. if you don't agree to the terms(atheists don't) you are free to shop for an after life elsewhere 😛

Originally posted by eatmybishop
what would it actually take god to do to make you accept he/she is real?

Define 'real'.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
the hole point of a religion is to have faith, to believe something even though you are not sure.

But why?

if proof would exist of god most will accept his existence although some people will always believe what they want even in the face proof to the contrary. like creationists.
There is no proof that contradicts creationists beliefs. There is only evidence that most of us find overwhelming. However they don't.
I find the evidence against God existing just as overwhelming.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
oh so you are dictating terms and ultimatums?

No. Where did I dictate terms? Knightmeister asked what I wanted and I responded to that. I think you are projecting onto me what is not there in my post.

it is slightly different with religion though. if god doesn't exist, when you die, you cease to exist also so you won't know that you believed in a non-existent god. if he does exist and you didn't believed in him wouldn't you fell rather stupid?
No, I don't think I would feel stupid. I believe that I make the best deductions I can from the information available to me. If those deductions are wrong, which they very well may be, there is nothing much I can do about it and feeling stupid wont help. Maybe I am stupid, I probably wouldn't know it if I was, but in your scenario, the person who believed in God then ceased to exist at death may be just as stupid whether he felt it or not.
Your concern seems to be that if you are stupid, you would rather not know about it - and you are willing to base your whole life and pray to whatever imaginary God is necessary to keep yourself ignorant of your possible stupidity.

Note: At no point in my post am I calling you stupid and I don't think you are.

Originally posted by knightmeister
If he did this you would have no choice but to believe in him , if he hides at least you get the choice. A God who made a sign in the stars would really be a soooooper daddy who might be accused of making it far too easy for us. Do you want an obvious sooooper daddy?

As others have said, the original question was what would convince you that God is real. My answer was an example of the sort of thing that would do it for me.

I certainly don't want the Christian god, he seems to be a bit of a monster.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Give a message that cannot be missunderstood. Like rearranging the stars into words that says "god did this" or something. He can do it, he is alwighty. But he won't. He can't. Because he isn't.

fair point, but many would just say it was the devil rearranging the stars to make us think it was god.... what a complex world religion is

Originally posted by eatmybishop
fair point, but many would just say it was the devil rearranging the stars to make us think it was god.... what a complex world religion is

Yes, such a stunt could still be a deception, but it would be a deception by an intelligence powerful enough to be indistinguishable from a deity. It would be hugely unlikely to come about by chance, and with there being no replication-with-errors, inheritance-of-instructions or competition-for-resources, evolution could be pretty much ruled out.

It would be compelling enough for me, I think.

--- Penguin.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But why?

[b]if proof would exist of god most will accept his existence although some people will always believe what they want even in the face proof to the contrary. like creationists.
There is no proof that contradicts creationists beliefs. There is only evidence that most of us find overwhelming. However they don't.
I find the evidence against God existing just as overwhelming.[/b]

Zahlanzi: “The hole point of a religion is to have faith, to believe something even though you are not sure.”

twhitehead: “But why?”

That is the $64,000 question.

Although I would rephrase the whole thing so that your question is really aimed at the notion of believing something for which one does not think she has (can have?) sufficient justificatory reason/evidence, rather than a strict rule of surety (certainty). Absent such reason, one may (reasonably) simply withhold belief. (Ringing rwingett!)

I do not believe that there is a god (using that word in the strict theistic sense) because I do not think that there is sufficient evidence to do so. That does not amount to certainty. On the other hand, there are god-concepts that seem to me to entail logical contradictions, and some that seem to me to be simply incoherent—and I actively disbelieve in such gods with certainty (of the Wittgensteinian kind).

Originally posted by eatmybishop
fair point, but many would just say it was the devil rearranging the stars to make us think it was god.... what a complex world religion is

Does it matter? Satan is also a part of the christian religion. If satan proves himself, then also god must exist. It's my chosing who to worship. For me it's a proof that there is something above the laws of nature, and science cannot explain everything within science. So if the stars are rearranged to send me, us, the humanity, a clear and non-interpretable message, then I'll believe.

The 5th of april I wrote that "I give him a week from now. If no non-interpretable sign among the stars until then, then it is a proof that no god is there. And I am right. I dare you, god!". It's 5 days left. If he exist, then he can do it.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Define 'real'.

Great question.

Indeed.

Define real.

What is real to one man, may not be so real to another.
I've experienced some things that would turn non-believers around.

Or not.

Originally posted by eatmybishop
what would it actually take god to do to make you accept he/she is real?

Which One?

Originally posted by eatmybishop
what would it actually take god to do to make you accept he/she is real?

Some sort of three week old confectionery bearing the likeness of Jesus would be ample evidence for me.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Define 'real'.

good question, if cant be defined, that would explain why even god cant do it