Originally posted by TerrierJackPerhaps if you believe that God, who is morally perfect, is able to sentence people to eternal torture [i.e., hell], then a bit of non-eternal torture here on earth is excusable as well [with the excuse that the tortured are 'bad' people].
Why are so many religious people in America willing to accept torture as a policy? Isn't this a spiritual issue? Are torturers going to heaven? (If so, I'll gladly go to hell.)
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RB, so rejecting torture is stupid and heaven is full of torturers? Are you one of these Satanists?
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rob, Bush's former speechwriter known as a Christian political operative, Michael Gerson. Aside from that - ask your pastor to preach a sermon condemning it (I won't hold my breath.) Also, name a well-known christian religious leader who has condemned it - prove it - name one.
Originally posted by TerrierJackBecause no one lives their life entirely based on the strictures or tenets of any particular philosophy or religion.
Why are so many religious people in America willing to accept torture as a policy? Isn't this a spiritual issue? Are torturers going to heaven? (If so, I'll gladly go to hell.)
Life is messy.
Sometimes we lie, cheat, swear, steal, and so on. Sometimes we don't.
What I'd like to know is why do people continue to go over and over and over the same merry-go-round of bag the religious, bag the atheists? Clearly it achieves nothing.
We all remain with our beliefs and biases.
Why are we arguing?
I'm more interested in understanding our differences and celebrating them.
Originally posted by TerrierJackPastor? Why would I ask a pastor anything? am i unable to read and assimilate the scriptures for myself? do i not have a conscience that I am able to train and exercise on biblical principles for myself? why would i look to anyone else be it a political leader or a religious leader for guidance? I cannot name any well known Christian leaders for I know not any! the matter in my mind is so simple and clear, 'the Christ himself states quite clearly, 'you must love you're neighbor as yourself', not only that but when asked 'who really is my neighbour', the Christ gives the illustration of a certain Samaritan man, who upon finding someone half-dead by the hand of robbers, takes care of him at his own expense, therefore is it 'neighborly', and, 'loving', to torture someone? absolutely not. what can we say in this regard? that those professing to be Christians may be nothing of the sort, and you my friend are not so nieve so as to recognize this for yourself.
RB, so rejecting torture is stupid and heaven is full of torturers? Are you one of these Satanists?
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rob, Bush's former speechwriter known as a Christian political operative, Michael Gerson. Aside from that - ask your pastor to preach a sermon condemning it (I won't hold my breath.) Also, name a well-known christian religious leader who has condemned it - prove it - name one.
Originally posted by TerrierJackA better question is why God allows suffering. You know life on earth can be "hell" as we all have ample examples of such yet it occurs. Its the age old question of how can a loving God allow suffering. Perhaps hell is merely the extreme of such.
Why are so many religious people in America willing to accept torture as a policy? Isn't this a spiritual issue? Are torturers going to heaven? (If so, I'll gladly go to hell.)
Originally posted by TerrierJackI think you would find most people opposed to torture for tortures sake. However when it is seen as part of war, it becomes another matter entirely. One can take a stance anywhere from complete pacifism to preemptive strikes and torture when it comes to war and I think you will find that the old Testament is far from anti-war. I think Jesus was more of a pacifist but I do not know if he said so directly.
Why are so many religious people in America willing to accept torture as a policy? Isn't this a spiritual issue? Are torturers going to heaven? (If so, I'll gladly go to hell.)
So do you think a religious person should/should not:
1. Kill in self defense.
2. Join the army (and kill if necessary) when his country is attacked.
3. Join the army when his country is threatened - but not actually attacked (as with Iraq -though the threat was minimal).
4. Torture a prisoner in the hope of gaining information that might save lives.
My own objections to torture are not so much the basic concept but
a) the fact that studies have found it to be highly unreliable,
b) the fact that it can be misused (for the wrong motives) and used mistakenly (on innocent people).
c) the fact that if we do it then our enemies are more likely to do it.
Originally posted by TerrierJack
RB, so rejecting torture is stupid and heaven is full of torturers? Are you one of these Satanists?
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rob, Bush's former speechwriter known as a Christian political operative, Michael Gerson. Aside from that - ask your pastor to preach a sermon condemning it (I won't hold my breath.) Also, name a well-known christian religious leader who has condemned it - prove it - name one.
Two points:
I don't want to torture or kill anybody...(mind you, if given the choice, I'd rather undergo it myself then inflicting it on someone else) I think far too much is spent on weaponry in an age where it is really not necessary. That resources should be rather spend on infrastructure, health and upliftment. Why should anything be spent on something that destroys?
"Hell..." No one has yet seen it and many don't even believe it exists. I refuse to believe that God will eternally torture lost souls. I think it is a place devoid from God and that that is the actual "torture". Imagine having a big meal and enough to drink and then declining taking any water/food with you for a long journey. In 2 or 3 days you will regret your decision... I think hell is like that. We experience God's presence everyday (whether we believe in Him or not) and the regret one day to be truly without Him will be the torture that the Bible talks about.
Originally posted by WumpusWhy is the method of torture relevant? You start by saying that you refuse to believe that God tortures people yet proceed to say you do believe that he does (by either sending them away or withdrawing himself). If anything the other popular concept (of God handing over the job to another entity - Satan) gives God a better excuse - but still doesn't totally absolve him.
"Hell..." No one has yet seen it and many don't even believe it exists. I refuse to believe that God will eternally torture lost souls. I think it is a place devoid from God and that that is the actual "torture". Imagine having a big meal and enough to drink and then declining taking any water/food with you for a long journey. In 2 or 3 days you will regr ...[text shortened]... the regret one day to be truly without Him will be the torture that the Bible talks about.
The scenario you give also tells us that if we regret our decision then we necessarily were not fully aware of the facts when making the decision - again God must take some responsibility.
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A better question is NOT: "why does god allow suffering" - I don't see god allowing torture - I see people doing it, The question remains - why?
Also, it is good to hear rob saying that christianity has no power to save anyone or affect their behavior and that that can only be achieved thru personal action - I totally agree.
But I still don't hear the voices of those who claim to monopolize morality calling for prosecutions and that people be held accountable.
BTW - it is not just an issue of what works - if you paid all your traffic tickets without complaint if the police threatened to rap you in the skull with a flashlight it sure would save court costs but who would want to live in a society like that? Torture harms the agents and enablers also.
Originally posted by TerrierJackwoah, hold on their my friend, i have never stated that true Christianity has no power to save anyone, nor that it has no profound effect on a persons thinking, quite the contrary, for the correct application of sound Biblical principles will effect the way a person behaves, FOR THE BETTER, infact unless it profoundly effects the way they view others and behave, their worship is but a form of Godly devotion and is futile.
A better question is NOT: "why does god allow suffering" - I don't see god allowing torture - I see people doing it, The question remains - why?
Also, it is good to hear rob saying that christianity has no power to save anyone or affect their behavior and that that can only be achieved thru personal action - I totally agree.
But I still don't hea ...[text shortened]... who would want to live in a society like that? Torture harms the agents and enablers also.
Perhaps you are confusing nominal Christianity and the teaching of churches, pastors etc etc. and the actual principles contained in the Bible, for the two are not synonymous!