1. Joined
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    10 Nov '06 11:44
    Pope Paul VI in his 1968 Credo of the People of God, reiterated that any theological explanation of the doctrine must hold to the twofold claim that, after the consecration, 1) Christ's body and blood are really present; and 2) bread and wine are really absent; and this presence and absence is real and not merely something in the mind of the believer. [from Wikipedia]

    Please someone tell me this is not what it seems to be. The Catholic Church (and others) hold that during 'every valid celebration of the Eucharist' the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ, and that the believer partaking thereof believes this to be so?
  2. London
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    10 Nov '06 12:14
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Pope Paul VI in his 1968 Credo of the People of God, reiterated that any theological explanation of the doctrine must hold to the twofold claim that, after the consecration, 1) Christ's body and blood are really present; and 2) bread and wine are really absent; and this presence and absence is real and not merely something in the mind of the believer. ...[text shortened]... he flesh and blood of Christ, and that the believer partaking thereof believes this to be so?
    Your point being?

    Christians have been accused of cannibalism since the times of the Roman Empire.
  3. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    10 Nov '06 12:311 edit
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Christians have been accused of cannibalism since the times of the Roman Empire.
    They're not the only ones.

    Anyway, what's wrong with cannibalism?
  4. Joined
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    10 Nov '06 12:59
    Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
    They're not the only ones.

    Anyway, what's wrong with cannibalism?
    Exactly, Bon Appetite!!!!!
  5. Joined
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    10 Nov '06 14:53
    Judging from an examination of Christ's words on the subject of eating Him, it seems apparent that He was refering to taking in the inspired words out of His mouth.

    It is His words in His teaching which convey divine life to the receiver. Eating His physical flesh would be of no use. This is what I understand by studying carefully John chapter 6.

    After Jesus said this many of the disciples could no longer accept His teaching and withdrew:

    "He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise Him up in the last day. For My flesh is true food, and My blood is true drink ... As the living Father has sent Me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats Me, he also shall live because of Me ...

    Many therefore of His disciples, when they heard this said, This word is hard; who can hear it? (See John 6:54-61)


    Jesus then gives explanation to those remaining of His mysterious words:

    "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing; the words which I have spoken to you are spirit and are life ..." (6:63)

    To eat and assimilate Jesus Christ is to take into our heart His words. His words embody divine life and the Holy Spirit. When we take into our being His words the essence of divine life is dispensed into our being. We masticate and assimilate Jesus by "eating" Him in His words.

    He emphasizes His flesh and His blood because this is God Himself become flesh and blood. It is emphatic that we receive the revelation that Jesus is God incarnate as a man. To eat Him is to totally receive His words as the words of God Himself. The flesh profits nothing. That means that it is not the meat of His physical body which He is teaching us to eat here. It is His words which are spirit and life.

    If we eat Him through His words we will also live because of Him. He Himself spiritually will be developed and formed within us. We become compounded with the living and resurrected Christ who became a life giving Spirit to enter into man -

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    Christ today, that is today, is the life giving, life dispensing, life imparting, and life transfusing Spirit. When we take His words and muse and meditate upon them, turning them over and over within our heart, we are masticating Jesus. His spirit embodied words will cause the life giving Spirit to impart the very Christ into out being so that we can live because of Him.


    Remember, Jesus rose on the third day according to the Scriptures.
  6. Joined
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    10 Nov '06 14:57
    Originally posted by jaywill
    Judging from an examination of Christ's words on the subject of eating Him, it seems apparent that He was refering to taking in the inspired words out of His mouth.

    It is His words in His teaching which convey divine life to the receiver. Eating His physical flesh would be of no use. This is what I understand by studying carefully John chapter 6.

    A ...[text shortened]... because of Him.


    Remember, Jesus rose on the third day according to the Scriptures.
    I don't now, all this talk of masticating Jesus and eating him - a new slant on RHP.
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    10 Nov '06 15:21
    Originally posted by sugiezd
    I don't now, all this talk of masticating Jesus and eating him - a new slant on RHP.
    What is RHP ?
  8. Standard memberWulebgr
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    10 Nov '06 15:331 edit
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Pope Paul VI in his 1968 Credo of the People of God, reiterated that any theological explanation of the doctrine must hold to the twofold claim that, after the consecration, 1) Christ's body and blood are really present; and 2) bread and wine are really absent; and this presence and absence is real and not merely something in the mind of the believer. he flesh and blood of Christ, and that the believer partaking thereof believes this to be so?
    It is ritual cannibalism.


    OTOH, nail biting is gustatory cannibalism, which is revolting.
  9. Joined
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    10 Nov '06 15:392 edits
    It is not too hard to understand.

    "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)


    1.) The last Adam means Jesus Christ. He is called the second man and the last Adam.

    2.) "became" - Jesus Christ changed His form. He became something. He altared His form to be in a form in order to accomplish something.

    He physically rose from the dead. But in addition He changed into someting that He [b]"became"
    . Just like John 1 says "The Word became flesh" meaning that God was incarnated as a man so "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" likewise means that Jesus (the Word become flesh) took another step to become a life giving Spirit.

    3. ".. a life giving Spirit" . That is something immaterial. That is also something personal that is a Person and has personality - a living Being. He became in a form of a living immaterial Spirit to give life.

    4.) This life giving Spirit gives divine and uncreated life of God to man. This life giving Spirit gives man God. The life giving Spirit imparts God to man. The life giving Spirit dispenses the divine Person of the Triune God into man to be man's life.


    We are composed of many inward parts. We have mind, emotion, will. And included in these are memory, imagination, thought life, deciding tendencies, motives, etc. etc.

    To masticate Jesus is to send this life giving Spirit into the various parts of our inner being. We open up our life and allow the living Jesus Who is now a life giving Spirit access into more and more parts of our being.

    This compounds us with Jesus. This causes Jesus to live in us and be expressed from within us. This causes man to live God. That is not just to live for God but to live God. That is to live out God and allow God to live in harmony with oneself.

    To masticate is to finely chew up. There was a heavy weight lifter called Mr. Fletcher. He taught that the secret of his strength was in his way of eating which he called Fletcherization. He very finely chewed up his food, masticating it. Because of his way of masticating his food he said he released the topmost portion of energy into his body. Fletcherization enabled him to press heavy weights.

    This I use as an analogy. When we open up to Christ the life giving Spirit more and more we are strengthened by the resurrected Son of God. He infuses His life into our life. He gives divine and eternal life into us. And we are enabled to live God with the strength that the indwelling Christ provides.

    So it behooves us to masticate His word and receive Christ. It is advantagous for us to open up every chamber of our personality to allow Jesus to come in.

    This is a life long lesson. It must be learned. And it is a process that takes time. Gradually, on deeper and deeper levels we open up our being to Jesus the life giving Spirit Who He became, and let Christ be formed in us.
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    11 Nov '06 18:23
    Surely the bread and wine remain bread and wine.... they do not actually become flesh and blood.
  11. Subscriberno1marauder
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    11 Nov '06 18:34
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Surely the bread and wine remain bread and wine.... they do not actually become flesh and blood.
    Heretic.
  12. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
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    11 Nov '06 18:37
    Originally posted by snowinscotland

    Please someone tell me this is not what it seems to be. The Catholic Church (and others) hold that during 'every valid celebration of the Eucharist' the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of Christ, and that the believer partaking thereof believes this to be so?[/b]
    No No No relax, Christ is the Lamb of God! Eat and Drink as often is remeberence of me. That as death has passed us over; and by virtue of this sacrifice for the remission of sin. During the Eucharist the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of the "Lamb" of God!
  13. Joined
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    11 Nov '06 19:07
    Originally posted by spiritmangr8ness
    No No No relax, Christ is the Lamb of God! Eat and Drink as often is remeberence of me. That as death has passed us over; and by virtue of this sacrifice for the remission of sin. During the Eucharist the bread and wine become the flesh and blood of the "Lamb" of God!
    Yea but I don't even like black puddings....

    No seriously surely the bread and wine remain representations, they don't actually become something materially different? Am I dumb or too thick to get it?
  14. Standard memberspiritmangr8ness
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    11 Nov '06 21:01
    Originally posted by snowinscotland
    Yea but I don't even like black puddings....

    No seriously surely the bread and wine remain representations, they don't actually become something materially different? Am I dumb or too thick to get it?
    Or of They..........Doh!
  15. Joined
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    11 Nov '06 21:55
    Originally posted by jaywill
    It is not too hard to understand.

    [b]"The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)



    1.) The last Adam means Jesus Christ. He is called the second man and the last Adam.

    2.) "became" - Jesus Christ changed His form. He became something. He altared His form to be in a form in order to accomplish something.

    He physica ...[text shortened]... eing to Jesus the life giving Spirit Who He became, and let Christ be formed in us.
    I pretty much follow what you are saying, Jaywill, what I do not understand is the insistence on transubstantiation rather than transignification. You agree that there is a literal change of bread into flesh?
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