17 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetleAre these "persons" real or imaginary?
Are these "persons" real or imaginary?
Furthermore, some Christians worship the Trinitarian Christian God and some they do not. Define the "unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead" according to the specific denomination of the Christian religion that is accepted by yourself
😵
Are you merely naive, or truly clueless that you would ask a Christian if he considers God imaginary?
Your second-rate attempt at back-door lawyer-ing is, well, laughable.
My take on the Trinity is not what is in question. Your deplorable grasp of even the basics of this singular topic is what is called out. Are you conceding that you cannot support any of the garbage you've spent the last few posts spewing out? If so, feel free to start another thread.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI would disagree Christ has come to you.
Manny i am not saying that there are not devout Christians who go to church every Sunday, who look after those who are less needy, who give to charity, who look after their families and attend the sick, etc etc
however, the primary work that Christ Jesus did while he was on earth was to help people spiritually, which meant, going from village to v ...[text shortened]... e ask you to provide evidence of this public ministry, if you cannot, then the statement stands.
Manny
17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by menace71the references Manny if you please! evidence of a public ministry, if you please! perhaps i am also unworthy of this, as Christendom has deemed me unworthy to be a recipient of the Good News. What other reason could there be that they have not come?
I would disagree Christ has come to you.
Manny
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI have nothing to support darling. I simply explained in detail why the concept of the Christian Trinity is in my opinion irrational, and I already enjoy a fine conversation with Conrau K whilst jaywill, Galveston 75 and Rabbie enjoy theirs. And I am ready to readjust this opinion of mine in case any member of this forum could set out her/ his views in full regarding this doctrine and demonstrate clearly that it is logical.
[b]Are these "persons" real or imaginary?
Are you merely naive, or truly clueless that you would ask a Christian if he considers God imaginary?
Your second-rate attempt at back-door lawyer-ing is, well, laughable.
My take on the Trinity is not what is in question. Your deplorable grasp of even the basics of this singular topic is what is called ...[text shortened]... rbage you've spent the last few posts spewing out? If so, feel free to start another thread.[/b]
Obviously you are unable to do such a thing but this is fine with me😵
17 Dec 09
1 edit
Originally posted by black beetleI only enjoy yours and Conraus beetle, not mine. Just fighting over words. It seems to me that Freaky has either a bee in his bonnet or he ate too many chili peppers, for i think you have an excellent grasp of the arguments involved and what is more, are able to see both sides of what is essentially, as you are aware, an inexplicable and ill conceived doctrine. 🙁
I have nothing to support darling. I simply explained in detail why the concept of the Christian Trinity is in my opinion irrational, and I already enjoy a fine conversation with Conrau K whilst jaywill, Galveston 75 and Rabbie enjoy theirs. And I am ready to readjust this opinion of mine in case any member of this forum could set out her/ his views in ...[text shortened]... arly that it is logical.
Obviously you are unable to do such a thing but this is fine with me😵
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWho knows?
I only enjoy yours and Conraus beetle, not mine. Just fighting over words. It seems to me that Freaky has either a bee in his bonnet or he ate too many chili peppers, for i think you have an excellent grasp of the arguments involved and what is more, are able to see both sides of what is essentially, as you are aware, an inexplicable and ill conceived doctrine. 🙁
Maybe Conrau K or jaywill or some other Trinitarian Christian can explain efficiently to this miserable atheist this doctrine regarding these three different persons that they are not persons per se but activities although persons they remain within the so called godhead of the single entity "god" who is the Father and who is the Son and who is the Holy Spirit at the same time whilst the Father is neither the Son nor the Holy Spirit, the Son is neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit is neither the Son nor the Father and all of them three remain distinctive and at the same time they are all together One😵
17 Dec 09
10 edits
Originally posted by galveston75====================================
He created Jesus the "Master Worker" who created all we see with the direction of his Father... I don't know how that can be any clearer to you Jay. It's right there in front of you.
He created Jesus the "Master Worker" who created all we see with the direction of his Father... I don't know how that can be any clearer to you Jay. It's right there in front of you.
=======================================
Hebrews 1:2 is one of a number of verses which teach that the creation came into being through the Son of God.
"God ... has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed Heir of all things, through whom also He made the universe .."
I am aware that this verse shows the Son involved in the creation. And like it there is John 1:1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God.
All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him not one thing came into being which has come into being."
With this we also have Colossians 1:15,16 speaking of creation through the Firstborn:
"[Christ] Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation, because in Him all things were created, in the heavens and on the earth, the visible and the invisible ..."
Here now I have acknowledge three definite passages involving the Son, the Logos in the creation of all things.
Now in light of those three passages answer these questions:
"Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God." (Isaiah 44:6)
Does either Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 prove that there is another God besides Jehovah ?
Yes or No ?
How would you answer Jehovah here:
"I am Jehovah who makes all things, Who alone stretches out the heavens, Who spreads out the earth (Who was with Me?) (Isa. 44:24)
Is your answer to that question asked by Jehovah that according to Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 another god was with Him?
Yes or No?
Third question:
If Jehovah says Thus says Jehovah ... I am the First and I am the Last, And apart from Me there is no God" (Isaiah 44:6)
Do you correct Jehovah here and inform Him that apart from Jehovah there was or is ANOTHER god based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16?
Yes or No?
Fourth:
When Jehovah says "I am the First and I am the Last" (Isa. 44:6) and Jesus Christ ALSO says "Do not fear; I am the First and the Last" (Rev. 1:17)
Do you then say, based on Hebrews 1:2; John 1:1; Col.1:15,16 , that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillHow do you reconcile your conclusion that Christ and God are one and the same with this verse:
[b]====================================
He created Jesus the "Master Worker" who created all we see with the direction of his Father... I don't know how that can be any clearer to you Jay. It's right there in front of you.
=======================================
Hebrews 1:2 is one of a number of verses which teach that the creation ...[text shortened]... [/b], that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?[/b]
1Cor 11:3 ... the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by jaywillWell..I have to say I'm impresssed that you are admitting that Jesus, his son, was involved in the creation process. Does that possible mean that you think even a little that they are two seperate beings?
[b]====================================
He created Jesus the "Master Worker" who created all we see with the direction of his Father... I don't know how that can be any clearer to you Jay. It's right there in front of you.
=======================================
Hebrews 1:2 is one of a number of verses which teach that the creation ...[text shortened]... [/b], that there are TWO Firsts and TWO Lasts ?
Yes or No?[/b]
Anyway I have already commented that both Jesus and Satan are referred to as Gods in the Bible and the term having "Many God's" are used with false religious beliefs....But these are relative terms as we know that there is only 1 God almighty.
But if you notice, Jehovah is never quoted in the Bible as saying there is any other real God in existance or one that can challenge him. The other God's including Jesus that are mentioned in the Bible are from "mans viewpoint", not Jehovah's. Even though Jesus has been given much power and authority and wisdom, he is still not God Almighty. Ps 96:5 and 1Cor 8:5,6 brings this out. And verse 6 also clearly shows two distinct individuals, Jesus and his Father. This scripture in verse 6 is one to really contemplate on alot Jay as there is much info here.
I'm getting ready for work and will comment more soon...
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999I know you'd never say this to me or RC..but good points Raj.
How do you reconcile your conclusion that Christ and God are one and the same with this verse:
1Cor 11:3 ... the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSomething is wrong with you. I make a general statement about JWs and about Christianity in general. You then try as usual to make it personal. I am not talking about you. Im not talking about me. Try to focus on the issue. Its no wonder everyone on this site thinks you are missing a few screws.
yes rather interestingly they all revolve around the same criteria, you as a member of Christendom dont need to go to people and speak to them about the good news of Gods Kingdom, as Jesus himself did. please dont give your petty petitions and excuses to me, preaching is not teaching, but you dont know the difference, because you do not know either ...[text shortened]... , you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow?[/b]
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by galveston75I try to stick to the issues and make every effort to repeat as truly and faithfully the words of Christ and Paul without tainting it with my own personal bias and interpretation.
I know you'd never say this to me or RC..but good points Raj.
And yes I will try to give credit where it is due, and Yes you and Robbie have often made good points. I thought you did not care for my opinion ... 🙂
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by black beetlesomeone described it to me once as like an egg, we have the shell, the white and the yolk, all three are distinct but still part of the same, however it appears to me to be more like scrambled eggs!😵
Who knows?
Maybe Conrau K or jaywill or some other Trinitarian Christian can explain efficiently to this miserable atheist this doctrine regarding these three different persons that they are not persons per se but activities although persons they remain within the so called godhead of the single entity "god" who is the Father and who is the Son and w ...[text shortened]... ther and all of them three remain distinctive and at the same time they are all together One😵
17 Dec 09
Originally posted by Rajk999When the truth is spoken by anyone it is a good thing..
I try to stick to the issues and make every effort to repeat as truly and faithfully the words of Christ and Paul without tainting it with my own personal bias and interpretation.
And yes I will try to give credit where it is due, and Yes you and Robbie have often made good points. I thought you did not care for my opinion ... 🙂