1. Joined
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    13 Dec '09 23:49
    More info to consider...

    1) The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
    2) The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
    3) The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of.
    4) Creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through, and Mary was exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the saints was sanctioned.
    5) The organized church was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today's churches/denominations. These denominations are different to the Body of Christ spoken of in the scriptures. This shows us that most denominations are still rooted in a creed and in particular the Trinity doctrine. Most denominations still have the Trinity doctrine as a foundation and this doctrine originally came from Babylon.
    6) The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known today as the Dark Ages.
    7) Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.
    8) As a result many new denominations started up and unfortunately they held onto some of the creeds and in particular the Trinity doctrine.


    Now the Trinity doctrine says that God is made up of 3 persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.

    John 17:3
    Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

    Or Ephesians 4:4-6
    4 there is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called
    5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
    6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

    John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
    He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

    This scripture shows the same 3 levels that we see in the scripture below. Note: The word head means authority, head or source.
    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    So who is Jesus. The following Statements are from the scriptures, and should be the words that we trust in in order to understand who Jesus really is....
    God has spoken to us through the Prophets and now his Son.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    The Son is the exact brightness of Gods glory.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    He is the image of the invisible God.
    See Colossians 1:12-16
    God sustains all things by his Word (Jesus is the Word of God).
    See Hebrews 1:1-6 & John 1:1
    He is seated at the right hand of God.
    See Colossians 3:1-3
    He inherited a name more superior to the Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    He is worthy to be worshipped by Angels.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    God became a Father when he begat his son "You are my Son, today I have become your Father".
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    He is the Firstborn from the Dead.
    See Revelation 1:4-6
    Jesus has first place in everything.
    Jesus is head over the Church.
    See Ephesians 1:22
    He is Gods firstborn.
    See Hebrews 1:1-6
    Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
  2. Illinois
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    14 Dec '09 01:14
    Originally posted by galveston75
    More info to consider...

    1) The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
    2) The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
    3) The Council o ...[text shortened]... ebrews 1:1-6
    Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
    The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.


    It is simply not true that the doctrine of Christ's divinity was decided by the council of Nicene. Christ's divinity was believed by the ante-Nicene church from before the earliest moments of the first century (A. D. 100-325). Consider the following quote from History of the Christian Church, Volume II: Ante-Nicene Christianity. A.D. 100-325:

    "The whole theological energy of the ante-Nicene period concentrated itself... upon the doctrine of Christ as the God-man and Redeemer of the world. This doctrine was the kernel of all the baptismal creeds, and was stamped upon the entire life, constitution and worship of the early church. It was not only expressly asserted by the fathers against heretics, but also professed in the daily and weekly worship, in the celebration of baptism, the eucharist and the annual festivals, especially Easter. It was embodied in prayers, doxologies and hymns of praise. From the earliest record Christ was the object not of admiration which is given to finite persons and things, and presupposes equality, but of prayer, praise and adoration which is due only to an infinite, uncreated, divine being [italics mine]. This is evident from several passages of the New Testament (Matt. 2:11; 9:18; 17:14, 15; 28:9, 17; Luke 17:15, 16; 23:42; John 20:28; Acts 7:59, 60; 9:14, 21; 1 Cor. 1:2; Phil. 2:10; Hebr. 1:6; 1 John 5:13-15; Rev. 5:6-13, etc.), from the favorite symbol of the early Christians, the Ichthys, from the Tersanctus, the Gloria in Excelsis, the hymn of Clement of Alexandria in praise of the Logos, from the testimony of Origen, who says: "We sing hymns to the Most High alone, and His Only Begotten, who is the Word and God; and we praise God and His Only Begotten;" and from the heathen testimony of the younger Pliny who reports to the Emperor Trajan that the Christians in Asia were in the habit of singing "hymns to Christ as their God." Eusebius, quoting from an earlier writer (probably Hippolytus) against the heresy of Artemon, refers to the testimonies of Justin, Miltiades, Tatian, Clement, and "many others" for the divinity of Christ, and asks: "Who knows not the works of Irenaeus and Melito, and the rest, in which Christ is announced as God and man? Whatever psalms and hymns of the brethren were written by the faithful from the beginning, celebrate Christ as the Word of God, by asserting his divinity."

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xiv.viii.html
  3. Illinois
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    14 Dec '09 01:313 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    More info to consider...

    1) The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
    2) The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
    3) The Council o ebrews 1:1-6
    Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
    Now the Trinity doctrine says that God is made up of 3 persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. But the truth is that the only true God is the Father. The son is just that, he is the Son of God, not God himself.

    The Bible teaches that we are to honor Christ as we honor God Himself. Christ said it is God's purpose "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). If Christ is not God, out of curiosity, what justification do you have for honoring Him as you honor God?

    Further, why would God the Father allow one of his creatures to receive the glory which belongs only to Him? If Christ is not God, then the Father has commanded us to commit idolatry by honoring as God someone other than God Himself.

    Indeed, the Bible teaches us to respond to Jesus Christ as we would to God, by giving him the honors that are due God. We are to honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear, reverence, religiously serve, love and obey Jesus as we would God. Honoring Jesus in these ways would be odd - even blasphemous - if he were merely a creature created by God. No matter how great he may be, even if he were the first created thing, it would be wrong to honor Jesus as God if he were fundamentally and in essence no more than a creature like us. Wouldn't you agree?

    God said, "I am the LORD your God... You shall have no other gods before me" (Ex. 20:2-3). Even Christ said, "Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve" (Mat. 4:10). How do we reconcile God's commands concerning himself, e.g., "you shall have no other gods before me," with the other commands concerning Christ: that we are to honor, glorify, worship, pray to, sing to and about, believe in, fear, reverence, religiously serve, love and obey him just as we would God Himself? In other words, how do you justify honoring a created being as God?

    It is my position that the only acceptable answer is that we honor Jesus Christ as God because Jesus Christ is God.
  4. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 01:46
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    [b]The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.


    It is simply not true that the doctrine of Christ's divinity was decided by the council of Nicene. Christ's divinity was believed by the ante-Nicene church from before the earlies ...[text shortened]... erting his divinity."

    http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/hcc2.v.xiv.viii.html[/quote][/b]
    Well it's strange that in other discussions of the Trinity in the past, most Trinitarians referred to those dates I posted to confirm their beliefs in the Trinity. And no I'm not going back to look for it. You can if your interested.
  5. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 02:32
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    ...

    The Bible teaches that we are to honor Christ as we honor God Himself. Christ said it is God's purpose "that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father" (John 5:23). If Christ is not God, out of curiosity, what justification do you have for honoring Him as you honor God?
    ....
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
  6. Account suspended
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    14 Dec '09 03:10
    Originally posted by Badwater
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
    devastating logic!
  7. Illinois
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    14 Dec '09 03:30
    Originally posted by Badwater
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
    ...if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God?

    What reader are you referring to? The context is Jesus expounding on his claim of equality with God to the Jews; the claim of equality with God which so infuriates their religious sensibilities. Remember that the Gospels are based on eye-witness accounts and have context.

    Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    Why honor Christ as God if Christ is not God?
  8. Illinois
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    14 Dec '09 03:321 edit
    Originally posted by robbie carrobie
    devastating logic!
    [Snarky comment deleted]

    EDIT: No need to be nasty, epiphinehas.
  9. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 03:33
    Originally posted by Badwater
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
    ===================================
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
    ============================


    We honor Christ as God and man. We honor Him as man and God.

    By honoring Christ as God we are not saying "He is therefore NOT a man."

    And by honoring Him as a man we are not saying "He is therefore not God".

    So you see, it is rather envolved because Christ is the mingling of God and man.

    Satan hates this truth. Satan would prefer that we do not believe in God at all. But if he cannot have that he will do what he can to make sure we keep God and man APART.

    Christ is the union, the blending, the joining of God and man. Once again, Jesus Christ is God-Man.
  10. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 03:482 edits
    Originally posted by Badwater
    [b]On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.[/b
    =================================
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?
    =================================
    [/b]

    It is not simply a matter of "honoring" Christ as God in some purely objective way. It is not simply a matter of the piety of "honoring" Christ as God.

    Beyond this it is a matter of God in Christ getting into His people that they may LIVE Christ, live in oneness with Christ, live in the sphere and realm of Christ as the indwelling divine life of God.

    For this reason "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)

    Christ is the God-man who is in a form such that He can give God as divine life to man. He is "life giving Spirit".

    Christ the Son and His Father are the divine "WE" Who comes into His redeemed people to make an abode within them:

    "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

    God comes into the believer with the Son. The Son brings the Father into the believer. The Father and the Son as "life giving Spirit" enter into the believer to make and abode with the believer. The Father and the Son as the Divine "WE" comes into the believer.

    The Father will not come apart from Christ. Christ cannot BUT bring with Him the Father. The Father and the Son can only enter into man as the Holy Spirit - the life giving Spirit.

    This is beyond simply honoring Christ as God. This is receiving God, the three - one God, Father, Son, Holy Spirit as divine life.

    Christ gives God to man as divine life. The "life giving Spirit" really means the God giving Spirit. That is the God given to man to be man's eternal and divine life.

    He that has the Son has the life. He who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

    Now. Surely you know the tune "Battle Hymn of the Republic". Sing that tune but use these wonderful lyrics:

    "Christ has put on human nature and become a man like me.
    He has died upon the cross that I from Adam might be free.
    He has risen and in Spirit He has come to live in me,
    That He might be my life.

    Victory, victory Hallelujah!
    Victory, victory Hallelujah!
    Victory, victory Hallelujah,
    For Christ is now my all !

    [b]"Christ has put on human nature and become a man like me.
    He has died upon the cross that I from Adam might be free.
    He has risen and in Spirit He has come to live in me,
    That He might be my life.

    Victory, victory Hallelujah!
    Victory, victory Hallelujah!
    Victory, victory Hallelujah,
    For Christ is now my life !
  11. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 04:07
    Originally posted by jaywill
    [b]===================================
    On the contrary - if the reader knows that Christ is God, then why the reminder to honor Christ as God? Further, why honor Christ as God if Christ is God?

    The answer is quite simple.
    ============================


    We honor Christ as God and man. We honor Him as man and God.

    By honoring Christ ...[text shortened]... is the union, the blending, the joining of God and man. Once again, Jesus Christ is God-Man.[/b]
    "Christ is the union, the blending, the joining of God and man. Once again, Jesus Christ is God-Man."



    Where in the heck do you get that from? Nothing even remotley like that in the Bible... You just make this stuff up as you go don't you? So now the Trinity is (((4)))) beings sence man is now a part of this God-Jesus-Man-Holy Ghost "Quad-triun"? This just gets better and better!!
  12. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 04:356 edits
    Originally posted by galveston75
    "Christ is the union, the blending, the joining of God and man. Once again, Jesus Christ is God-Man."



    Where in the heck do you get that from? Nothing even remotley like that in the Bible... You just make this stuff up as you go don't you? So now the Trinity is (((4)))) beings sence man is now a part of this God-Jesus-Man-Holy Ghost "Quad-triun"? This just gets better and better!!
    =================================
    Where in the heck do you get that from?
    =================================


    From the word of God - the Bible.

    Christ is the mingling of God and man. Christ is the central meaning of the universe and of human life.

    Christ is God-Man. Christ came to produce many God-men:

    That is why Christ is called not only the Onlybegotten Son of God. He is called also the Firstborn Son of God.

    First to be followed by others: He is God-man by incarnation and resurrection. The many brothers who become God-men are so by salvation and deification:

    "Because those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." (Rom. 8:29)

    Christ is the God-man as the object our worship. But more so as our divine life to conform His people to become as He is - God in life and nature.

    Christ is the Head of this entity. Christ as God-man is the Head. The saved as God-men are the Body of this entity.

    Christ as God is eternally pre-existent. And in incarnation He became man. And in resurrection He became the Firstborn Son of God wearing the glorified humanity for eternity. He will never put off that human nature with which He clothed Himself, lived, died, and resurrected.

    Christ is the standard model, the prototype of the mingling of divinity and humanity.

    When He returns to the earth He returns as the Firstborn Son of God:

    "And when He brings again the Firstborn into the inhabited earth, He says, and let all the angels of God worship Him." (Hebrews 1:6)

    ==========================
    Nothing even remotley like that in the Bible...
    ======================


    Read the typology of the meal offering in Leviticus. The Fine Flour was "MINGLED" with OIL.

    The fine flour represents the fine and perfect humanity of Jesus. The oil is of course the eternal divine Spirit of God. The word "mingled" is used, is biblical. And the typology represents that Christ as the reality of the meal offering is the mingling of God and man.

    Leviticus 2:4 - And when thou offerest an oblation of a meal-offering baken in the oven, it shall be unleavened cakes of fine flour MINGLED with oil, or unleavened wafers anointed with oil" (A.S.V.)

    J.N. Darby, in his New Translation of the Bile, amplifies a note of Franz Delitzsch on the Hebrew word Bahlul - "mingled"

    "Bahlal. It cannot, I think, be doubted that this is more than, and intended to be more than mahshagh "anointed." "Mixed," "mingled," is the sense of the word. In Psalm 92:10 it is not merely "anointed" as consecration, but his whole system is invigorated and strengthened by it; it formed his strength; hence it is "fresh oil" there."

    The brothers with insight realized this typology in the book of Leviticus represented Christ, the real meal offering, as the mingling of God and man.

    And what is seen in type in the meal offering is seen in actuality in the New Testament Gospels - Christ as God-Man united and mingled as one.
  13. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 04:493 edits
    Bill Freeman writes in "The Testimony of Church History Regarding the Mingling of God with Man" -

    "The Hebrew lexicons of Brown, Driver and Briggs, Koehler and Baumgartner, and Censenius also define the word bahlal as "mingle; mix; confuse; confound; flow as water; moisten with water; mixed-offering". The Septuagint Version (LXX) in Leviticus 2:4 uses the Greek word phuro as the equivalent of the Hebrew word bahlal. Liddell and Scott define the word phuro as "mingled; mix; something dry with something wet, stained."

    The Old Testament contains the picture. The New Testament contains the caption underneath the picture.

    Christ as the offering to God was the mingling of divinity with humanity - God and man mingled and mixed together.

    The Word who was THE God in eternity and not some other "a god," became flesh (John 1:14) He mingled God and man together.

    And in resurrection He totally uplifted that human part that He took on and glorified it forever. He will NEVER put that human nature away but will remain God/Man for eternity.

    Arius and Russell were wrong to rebel against the incarnation of God as a man Jesus Christ. And you, Galveston, have been misled by their false teaching.
  14. Standard membermenace71
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    14 Dec '09 04:57
    I have not gone there in a long time about the trinity. Somethings are understood by inference. Example when Christ forgave sin. This was interpreted by those around Jesus as blasphemy. Why? You have to ask yourself this question. This was understood to be the prerogative of God alone. Either Jesus was God or a liar. Secondly He performed miracles such as healing and raising of the dead. These are also prerogatives of God alone. I don't think Buddha or any other Humans can make any such claims. He Christ also exercised being omniscient because He knew thoughts before they were said. Phillip under the tree Christ knew his thoughts. The women at the well for example or the case were He told the people that wanted to have a women stoned to death. He Christ started writing their sins in the dirt and said let the first without sin cast the stone. Commanding the sea to be still? Who on this earth can do this? No one I know. Jesus the God man! Cloaked in flesh! Just because our finite minds can't comprehend God does not dismiss what is taught in scripture. Just because we can't fully comprehend does not mean we can't at least ascertain what is taught in scripture. Were Christ was born? Bethlehem it means House of bread or House of God were God came into this world to be the perfect sacrifice. The Bread of life.


    Manny
  15. Joined
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    14 Dec '09 05:07
    Originally posted by galveston75
    More info to consider...

    1) The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.
    2) The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.
    3) The Council o ...[text shortened]... ebrews 1:1-6
    Jesus is the Ruler or Beginning of the Creation of God.
    See Revelation 3:14
    (1) The Trinity doctrine is not taught anywhere in scripture, but trinities were common in Paganism and were prominent in Egypt and Babylon.

    This is false. Threesomes were common but certainly not Trinities. In mythology, we do see threes (for example, Zeus, Hades and Poseidon as the supreme gods of the earth, sea and underworld.) The Trinity however makes a much more substantial claim: that each person of the Trinity are united in the divine nature and each are the one God. I am not aware of any other religious tradition which includes such a claim. The Trinitarian doctrine emphasises the mutual indwelling of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit -- the Father dwells in the Son and the Son in the Father (John 14:9). This claim is unique and has no pagan antecedent. In fact, it found a lot of resistance among pagans.


    2) The beginnings of recognition of this doctrine started at the Council of Nicea approximately 325 AD. Hundreds of years after the last book in the Bible was written.

    This is not a problem for the majority of Christians. For traditional Christians, the bible is not the sole source of revelation -- by the time of the Council of Nicea, the bible canon had not even been defined yet. A consensus had emerged by the fifth century but was not formally declared until the time of the reformation. So technically, the Trinity predates the bible.

    3) The Council of Nicea was organized by the Roman Emperor Constantine and he had the final say on matters that he had little understanding of.

    Constantine did not have any voting privileges. As a layman, he did not have the power to impose teachings on the bishops in whom sole teaching authority was vested.

    4) Creed followed creed, and eventually idols were accepted as forms that we can worship God through, and Mary was exalted to be the Mother of God and worship of the saints was sanctioned.

    The Nicene creed has since been modified, since the council of Constantinople and the insertion of the filioque clause. It is hardly though a matter of 'creed after creed'. No other creed has ever been defined. Idolatry is not tolerated in the Catholic, Orthodox or other traditional Christian churches. No one practices the worship of saints. This is pure Protestant fantasy.

    5) The organized church was built on top of these creeds. The creeds were and are the foundation for many of today's churches/denominations. These denominations are different to the Body of Christ spoken of in the scriptures. This shows us that most denominations are still rooted in a creed and in particular the Trinity doctrine. Most denominations still have the Trinity doctrine as a foundation and this doctrine originally came from Babylon.

    Mere historical fabrication.

    6) The mother of these denominations the Roman Catholic Church murdered approximately 50 million people, had armies and banned access to scripture to Christians. This time is known today as the Dark Ages.

    Why is the Roman Catholic church the mother of these denominations? The Orthodox churches have an ancient and direct lineage from the early church and in liturgy much closer reflects the early church. Secondly, Scripture was never actually banned. At the beginning of the dark ages, the Church produced the Vulgate for ordinary Latin-speakers. It is true that subsequent translations were banned (hardly serious since the majority of Christians were illiterate) but there was never a ban on access to the Scriptures.

    7) Some relief came during the Reformation where the teachings and authority of the Catholic Church were challenged. The Reformation restored many truths back to the Body of Christ.

    Yawn.

    8) As a result many new denominations started up and unfortunately they held onto some of the creeds and in particular the Trinity doctrine.

    Yawn. Protestant daydreaming.
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