1. Shetland Primary
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    08 Jun '05 13:112 edits
    As I see it TRUTH is an absolute. Thus TRUTH is the same for all people. People may have different interpretations of TRUTH, but that does not change the TRUTH.

    Does the phrase "What is true for you is not true for me" not imply that TRUTH is relative? If so, is there anyone that believes that truth is relative?
  2. Joined
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    08 Jun '05 13:46
    Does a "house" reflect relative or absolute truth? Does a house exist in a relative way or in an absolute way? Or both? It may be helpful to look at a mundane example before we wade into deeper waters.
  3. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jun '05 13:48
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    As I see it TRUTH is an absolute. Thus TRUTH is the same for all people. People may have different interpretations of TRUTH, but that does not change the TRUTH.

    Does the phrase "What is true for you is not true for me" not imply that TRUTH is relative? If so, is there anyone that believes that truth is relative?
    Human "truth" is relative, for to formulate such a truth each and every one of us makes assumptions. This is not complete truth, for somewhere in it there is an undefinable object of faith. The only complete truth is God, a truth incomprehensible to pathetic man.

    ... --- ...
  4. Shetland Primary
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    08 Jun '05 14:33
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Human "truth" is relative, for to formulate such a truth each and every one of us makes assumptions. This is not complete truth, for somewhere in it there is an undefinable object of faith. The only complete truth is God, a truth incomprehensible to pathetic man.

    ... --- ...
    So you believe that God exists?
  5. Standard memberColetti
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    08 Jun '05 14:35
    Originally posted by eagles54
    Does a "house" reflect relative or absolute truth? Does a house exist in a relative way or in an absolute way? Or both? It may be helpful to look at a mundane example before we wade into deeper waters.
    Truth is propositional. The single term "house" is not a proposition, so it has no truth value. "All houses are green" is a proposition with a truth value.
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    08 Jun '05 14:46
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Truth is propositional. The single term "house" is not a proposition, so it has no truth value. "All houses are green" is a proposition with a truth value.
    If you look at my post again, you'll see that I asked if a house exists in a relative or absolute manner, or both. It does have truth value.
  7. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jun '05 14:58
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    So you believe that God exists?
    Of course. I've never attempted to hide my theism. In fact, I often flaunt it.
  8. Donationbbarr
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    08 Jun '05 15:18
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Human "truth" is relative, for to formulate such a truth each and every one of us makes assumptions. This is not complete truth, for somewhere in it there is an undefinable object of faith. The only complete truth is God, a truth incomprehensible to pathetic man.

    ... --- ...
    You are conflating 'truth' with 'formulation of truth'. Of course our beliefs about what is true will be relative to each of us; they are our beliefs, after all. Buth this entails nothing about the nature of truth itself. If you think that some beliefs are true and others false, then you are committed to truth being an objective matter. Further, even if you deny that truth is objective, you will thereby be committed to the claim that it is an objective matter that truth is relativistic, which means that there is at least one objective truth. Hence, your view is self-refuting.
  9. Standard memberColetti
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    08 Jun '05 15:22
    Originally posted by eagles54
    If you look at my post again, you'll see that I asked if a house exists in a relative or absolute manner, or both. It does have truth value.
    Does a house exist? The proposition "a house exists" is only half a proposition. You have a logical subject, and no predicate. "A house exists" is eqivialent to "A house is." -- Is what? A house is what?
  10. Donationbbarr
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    08 Jun '05 15:33
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Does a house exist? The proposition "a house exists" is only half a proposition. You have a logical subject, and no predicate. "A house exists" is eqivialent to "A house is." -- Is what? A house is what?
    No. "A house exists" is a complete proposition. It is translated in first order logic as:

    There is some X such that X is a house.

    or, symbolically, as:

    (Ex) Hx

    Where E is the existential quantifier, x is some object in the domain of discourse, and H is the property of being a house.
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    08 Jun '05 15:34
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Does a house exist? The proposition "a house exists" is only half a proposition. You have a logical subject, and no predicate. "A house exists" is eqivialent to "A house is." -- Is what? A house is what?
    Um, I asked if a house exists in a relative or absolute manner, or both. I'm not defining a house. Do you see the difference?
  12. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    08 Jun '05 16:10
    Originally posted by bbarr
    You are conflating 'truth' with 'formulation of truth'. Of course our beliefs about what is true will be relative to each of us; they are our beliefs, after all. Buth this entails nothing about the nature of truth itself. If you think that some beliefs are true and others false, then you are committed to truth being an objective matter. Further, even i ...[text shortened]... tic, which means that there is at least one objective truth. Hence, your view is self-refuting.
    It is not I who combines "'truth' with 'formulation of truth'" as you put it, but humanity itself. If you truly read my post you would see that I am not claiming that truth is not objective, but rather that what we humans call truth is not actually truth but only a belief based, somewhere along the line, on a very convincing (at least to the individual involved) assumption. Perhaps my wording was not clear.

    ... --- ...
  13. Standard memberColetti
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    08 Jun '05 16:24
    Originally posted by bbarr
    No. "A house exists" is a complete proposition. It is translated in first order logic as:

    There is some X such that X is a house.

    or, symbolically, as:

    (Ex) Hx

    Where E is the existential quantifier, x is some object in the domain of discourse, and H is the property of being a house.
    Your translation that "a house exists" means "there is some X such that X is a house" is extending the logical meaning of "a house exists" to " X is a house." But there is no "X" in "a house exists".

    If you want to say X is a house then you have a complete proposition, and you are saying more than "a house exists".
  14. London
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    08 Jun '05 16:27
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Your translation that "a house exists" means "there is some X such that X is a house" is extending the logical meaning of "a house exists" to " X is a house." But there is no "X" in "a house exists".

    If you want to say X is a house then you have a complete proposition, and you are saying more than "a house exists".
    X is just a variable signifier - like the x in x+3=5.
  15. Standard memberColetti
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    08 Jun '05 16:28
    Originally posted by eagles54
    Um, I asked if a house exists in a relative or absolute manner, or both. I'm not defining a house. Do you see the difference?
    Maybe you should spell it out. The terms are indefinite. You need to add some sort of framework in order to know if it is relative or absolute. In other words - relative to what?
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