1. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    14 Sep '06 17:12
    This idea of an "ultimate sacrifice" is a farce. Christians say and type these words without even thinking about them. What did God supposedly sacrifice for us in the story of Jesus? Did he sacrifice his only son? No, he actually didn't, as he rose up again in about a day and a half. And they both know that was going to happen. If you gave up your kid's college savings to some guy but you knew you would get it back tenfold would you call it a sacrifice? No, that would be an investment. In Jesus' case, though, it wasn't even that, as there was absolutely no risk. He knew exactly what was going to happen before it did. More like insider trading. Heck, not even that. More like trading your Queen for a pawn so you can queen two of your pawns. No loss of material--only gain.
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    14 Sep '06 17:25
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    This idea of an "ultimate sacrifice" is a farce. Christians say and type these words without even thinking about them. What did God supposedly sacrifice for us in the story of Jesus? Did he sacrifice his only son? No, he actually didn't, as he rose up again in about a day and a half. And they both know that was going to happen. If you gave up your ...[text shortened]... your Queen for a pawn so you can queen two of your pawns. No loss of material--only gain.
    Did he sacrifice his only son? No, he actually didn't, as he rose up again in about a day and a half. And they both know that was going to happen.

    Doesn't change the fact that it was a sacrifice. Sacrifice does not require uncertainty; and no one makes a sacrifice without some expectation of compensating rewards. What makes a sacrifice a sacrifice is that something important to the person is freely given up.
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    14 Sep '06 18:02
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    This idea of an "ultimate sacrifice" is a farce. Christians say and type these words without even thinking about them. What did God supposedly sacrifice for us in the story of Jesus? Did he sacrifice his only son? No, he actually didn't, as he rose up again in about a day and a half. And they both know that was going to happen. If you gave up your ...[text shortened]... your Queen for a pawn so you can queen two of your pawns. No loss of material--only gain.
    What about when Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac? Was his obedience to do so an act of sacrifice even though God stopped him from doing so in the end?
  4. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    14 Sep '06 18:06
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    [b]Did he sacrifice his only son? No, he actually didn't, as he rose up again in about a day and a half. And they both know that was going to happen.

    Doesn't change the fact that it was a sacrifice. Sacrifice does not require uncertainty; and no one makes a sacrifice without some expectation of compensating rewards. What makes a sacrifice a sacrifice is that something important to the person is freely given up.[/b]
    And what makes this not a sacrifice is that nothing was given up and it was known that nothing would be given up beforehand.
  5. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    14 Sep '06 18:06
    Originally posted by whodey
    What about when Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac? Was his obedience to do so an act of sacrifice even though God stopped him from doing so in the end?
    Yes.
  6. London
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    14 Sep '06 18:20
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    And what makes this not a sacrifice is that nothing was given up and it was known that nothing would be given up beforehand.
    Who says nothing was given up? A living man gave up his life. He gave up the time he had with his friends and family. He gave up his ability to enjoy the (legitimate) pleasures of the world. He even suffered for it.
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    14 Sep '06 19:02
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    Yes.
    But Abraham lost nothing. His son lived nonetheless.
  8. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    14 Sep '06 19:05
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Who says nothing was given up? A living man gave up his life. He gave up the time he had with his friends and family. He gave up his ability to enjoy the (legitimate) pleasures of the world. He even suffered for it.
    But not every man is an omnipotent being. A regular human giving up his life permanently is a great sacrifice. An alleged omnipotent, eternal being giving up his life for a couple days is trivial.
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    14 Sep '06 19:12
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    But not every man is an omnipotent being. A regular human giving up his life permanently is a great sacrifice. An alleged omnipotent, eternal being giving up his life for a couple days is trivial.
    Was Christ not in the same boat as we are? He died as we will. He then assumed a new form as we will. Our fate has been revealed to us according to faith as was Christ's fate was revealed to him according to his faith. If you think for a minute Christ struggled with his faith in what he was doing, why did he sweat great drops of blood? Why did he continuously ask the Father for another alternative? Even though he could see the light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel was a daunting fate in an of itself.
  10. SubscriberBigDoggProblem
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    14 Sep '06 20:052 edits
    Originally posted by whodey
    Was Christ not in the same boat as we are? He died as we will. He then assumed a new form as we will. Our fate has been revealed to us according to faith as was Christ's fate was revealed to him according to his faith. If you think for a minute Christ struggled with his faith in what he was doing, why did he sweat great drops of blood? Why did he continu ...[text shortened]... e could see the light at the end of the tunnel, the tunnel was a daunting fate in an of itself.
    Was Christ not in the same boat as we are?

    No, he was not. He had foreknowledge of his resurrection; we do not. Even a bible believer can't be entirely sure whether he's a 'sheep' or a 'goat'.

    If you think for a minute Christ struggled with his faith in what he was doing, why did he sweat great drops of blood?

    I see indications of suffering, but I neither see nor recall Christ doubting his faith. Instead, I find passages like:

    Luke 23
    42Then [the criminal] said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

    43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

    Which confirms Jesus knew his suffering would soon be over.
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    14 Sep '06 20:17
    Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
    [b]Was Christ not in the same boat as we are?

    No, he was not. He had foreknowledge of his resurrection; we do not. Even a bible believer can't be entirely sure whether he's a 'sheep' or a 'goat'.

    If you think for a minute Christ struggled with his faith in what he was doing, why did he sweat great drops of blood?

    I see indications ...[text shortened]... h me in paradise.[/i]"

    Which confirms Jesus knew his suffering would soon be over.[/b]
    What is faith? Faith is merely believing and doing the will of the Father and trusting his words, no? Christ stuggled with his faith in that he in no way wanted to go to the cross. Who would? I am not sure the majority of the torment revolved around the physical aspect of his endevour. I believe it was more of a psychological and spiritual pain of knowing he was to become sin for us and be seperated from the Father for the first and last time in the history of the universe.

    I suppose you could say that the only difference was that Christ did not have a sin nature as we do. However, he was tempted by sin nonetheless as the scriptures state. As far as your assumption that one cannot be sure about being a sheep or a goat, all I can say is that you either believe the words of the Father or you do not. Christ believed the words of his Father in that he would be raised by him on the third day just as we are told we will be raised up in the upcoming ressurection. If you do not believe in the ressurection then that is your business. As for me I believe.
  12. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    14 Sep '06 23:42
    Originally posted by lucifershammer
    Who says nothing was given up? A living man gave up his life. He gave up the time he had with his friends and family. He gave up his ability to enjoy the (legitimate) pleasures of the world. He even suffered for it.
    He didn't give up his life as he rose again, and he got to see most if not all of his friends and family in person after he died, and now is presumably in the presence of everyone and sits at the right hand of God the Father. This is a sacrifice? Are you saying that the pleasures (legitimate) of the world trump those of heaven? And forgive me for seeming cruel, but everyone suffers. There were a lot more people who died much more greusome deaths and tortures but were not attributed to any sacrifices.
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    14 Sep '06 23:45
    Originally posted by whodey
    What about when Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice his son Isaac? Was his obedience to do so an act of sacrifice even though God stopped him from doing so in the end?
    It was the act of a mindless idiot - the sort of thing we scoff at when we see it happen with cults, but call it Christian or Jewish and watch the defences rise.
    The one thing I am absolutely sure of in this world, above all else, is my devotion to my kids - there is not a single thing I wouldn't do to protect them.
    Now some of you may look at Abraham's decision and say 'oh yay, what a true believer, his faith in God is just great.' What a mindless, murderous idiot is what I see.
  14. Lisbon
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    14 Sep '06 23:591 edit
    Originally posted by thesonofsaul
    He didn't give up his life as he rose again, and he got to see most if not all of his friends and family in person after he died, and now is presumably in the presence of everyone and sits at the right hand of God the Father. This is a sacrifice? Are you saying that the pleasures (legitimate) of the world trump those of heaven? And forgive me for see ...[text shortened]... ople who died much more greusome deaths and tortures but were not attributed to any sacrifices.
    Hi

    As Whodey said "I believe it was more of a psychological and spiritual pain of knowing he was to become sin for us and be seperated from the Father for the first and last time in the history of the universe."

    Anyway, we are not talking here about a "mere" human being, but about the Son of God.

    According to John, Jesus, the Word, was the creator of everything.

    John 1
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    2 The same was in the beginning with God.
    3 All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made.

    In spite of being the creator, He humbled himself and came to earth; was betrayed, flogged, and crucified; He endured everything, so that we could be saved.

    This is Love (agape) in the first degree.

    Our creator gave us the greatest example of love and humility. There is no greater act than this. The Creator dying for His creation; for His friends and enemies.

    You have the free will to accept or reject it.

    Regards
  15. Standard memberthesonofsaul
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    15 Sep '06 02:43
    Originally posted by whodey
    But Abraham lost nothing. His son lived nonetheless.
    But not by his own will. Why are you trying to prove my point wrong by bringing up a completely different story? Are you actually using your gifts of reason or do you solve all intellectual problems by distraction?
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