Originally posted by vistesdI'm so shamefully Occidental, it's not funny.
Can I point out that the original meaning of the word “sacrifice” is “to make sacred or holy?” A soteriology of sanctification keeps closer to this sense of the word.
Although there is the idea of blood sacrifice in ancient Judaism, it is not the only kind of sacrifice. In the NT, the Greek thusia means an offering, generally a sacred offering ...[text shortened]... to enter into.)
* All quotes from Olivier Clement, The Roots of Christian Mysticism.
🙁
Thanks for the Oriental viewpoint. 🙂
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Originally posted by KellyJayJesus gave his physical life so that we might be saved. Many people have sacrificed their physical life for another.
What Judas did wasn't a sacrifice, and ultimate is all that you have
isn't it? You can not ultimately give more than you have, and in
Jesus' case He gave what he had here which as his life while here in
this life.
Kelly
Judas gave up his eternal spiritual life so that we might be saved (after all somebody had to betray Christ).
Judas' sacrifice was much greater because as you said yourself the eternal is all that matters.
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Originally posted by NemesioSome quotes from a Orthodox writer, bearing on my thesis in the prior post, that I thought might interest you—
I'm so shamefully Occidental, it's not funny.
🙁
Thanks for the Oriental viewpoint. 🙂
http://www.orlapubs.com/AR/OLD%20LTRS--LAT%20APLGT%20ETC/LT3.html
As Fr. John Meyendorff observed, the Orthodox speak simply of "Salvation." "Redemption" (based on a biblical metaphor) is rarely used; the other juridical terms, almost never.
Our emphasis on the Incarnation and the Resurrection (we certainly don't underestimate the Crucifixion either, but celebrate festivals in its honor, cross ourselves quite often, and have icons of the holy Cross everywhere) invokes being in the basic form of [divine] energies and emphasizes and depends on participation in Being.*
After all, it is nonsensical in our framework to say: God attributes (imputes) Adam's sins to you and me (and even the all-pure Theotokos); He then imputes these imputed sins of, say, an infant (or the all-pure Theotokos) back to Christ; and then Christ's "merits" are imputed to us--who all the time remain (as Luther said) "sinners" in ontological reality.**
* In Orthodoxy there is a longstanding differentiation between God’s essence and God’s energies; charis (“grace” ) is related to these energies, and is not simply “gift.”
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** I would phrase this “reductio” somewhat differently—
(1) As a result of the “fall,” Adam acquired an ontological “sin nature.”
(2) This ontological sinfulness (and the guilt that merits just punishment) is inherited by all subsequent humans (via procreation?).
(3) This ontological sinfulness/guilt is assumed by Christ (2 Cor. 5:21) and destroyed (Rom. 6:6), or removed (Heb. 9:26); [see also John 1:29, Rom. 6:22, Rom. 8:2, and 2 Cor. 5:21].
(4) Humans still inherit and bear this ontological sinfulness/guilt.
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There are no NT (or OT) occurrences of the terms “original sin,” “sin nature,” or even “sinfulness.” To be sure, “sin” is often employed as a substantive noun. NT references that are used in support of the concept of ontological sinfulness seem to be almost entirely Pauline, particularly in Romans.
The basis of Orthodox soteriology seems to be that the sins of humanity are forgiven (aphiemi: released, dismissed, cancelled), and salvation is now the process of allowing sanctification to come to fruition (sanctification/salvation is a process in Orthodoxy, not an event, perhaps like the process of healing after one has been injured). In Orthodoxy, the “fall” did not result in any ontological “sin nature,” since humanity did not lose its ontological nature as “image of God”—what was damaged was humanity’s “likeness” to God, that is, our ability to live a life of holiness. In this schema, the word “sin” takes on its original meaning as error or failure, and does not become strictly “transgression.” Again, Orthodox soteriology is about healing (iaomai), rather than about being redeemed from the guilt of any ontologically inherited sinfulness.
I’ll have to leave it all at that, and let others argue it out as they will—I now have other things to do.
NOTE: The Greek word translated as salvation (soterias) means to cure or make well, as well as to rescue or deliver. Orthodoxy clearly favors the former senses.
Originally posted by telerionJudas gave up his life out of guilt, Peter too had guilt and went to
Jesus gave his physical life so that we might be saved. Many people have sacrificed their physical life for another.
Judas gave up his eternal spiritual life so that we might be saved (after all somebody had to betray Christ).
Judas' sacrifice was much greater because as you said yourself the eternal is all that matters.
where we all can recieve forgiveness. What Judas did he did not do
so that you or anyone else could be saved eternally or any other way.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayJudas was called by God to betray Jesus. It was all part of God's plan. Some human had to betray Christ. If not Judas, then who?
Judas gave up his life out of guilt, Peter too had guilt and went to
where we all can recieve forgiveness. What Judas did he did not do
so that you or anyone else could be saved eternally or any other way.
Kelly
Judas knew the Son of God first-person. He understood what his crime would mean. He gave up his claim to spiritual life for our sake. Now he writhes in agony in the flames of Hell with no hope of solace.
Judas became God's eternal b*tch so that we might live. Jesus just had a bad day or two. Thank you Judas Iscariot for your precious sacrifice, and thank you too Jesus for your small contribution.
Originally posted by telerionI can only imagine the pain in your life. Think of your family, at least.
Judas was called by God to betray Jesus. It was all part of God's plan. Some human had to betray Christ. If not Judas, then who?
Judas knew the Son of God first-person. He understood what his crime would mean. He gave up his claim to spiritual life for our sake. Now he writhes in agony in the flames of Hell with no hope of solace.
Judas became ...[text shortened]... das Iscariot for your precious sacrifice, and thank you too Jesus for your small contribution.
Originally posted by telerionSo the only way Jesus could have made the ultimate sacrifice would have been to sin and be damned like Judas? So the only way to make a true sacrifice is to do the wrong thing?
Judas was called by God to betray Jesus. It was all part of God's plan. Some human had to betray Christ. If not Judas, then who?
Judas knew the Son of God first-person. He understood what his crime would mean. He gave up his claim to spiritual life for our sake. Now he writhes in agony in the flames of Hell with no hope of solace.
Judas became ...[text shortened]... das Iscariot for your precious sacrifice, and thank you too Jesus for your small contribution.
Your post makes it sound as though Judas did not have a will in the matter. I happen to disagree, however. Granted, God knew what he would do. I prefer not to go down the road of free will due to the fact we have been down it many, many times. We can agree to disagree.
Originally posted by telerionHad he understood his crime he would not have done it, nor would
Judas was called by God to betray Jesus. It was all part of God's plan. Some human had to betray Christ. If not Judas, then who?
Judas knew the Son of God first-person. He understood what his crime would mean. He gave up his claim to spiritual life for our sake. Now he writhes in agony in the flames of Hell with no hope of solace.
Judas became ...[text shortened]... das Iscariot for your precious sacrifice, and thank you too Jesus for your small contribution.
Satan have been moving him towards that end either. Even where
he was after his crime he avoided going to God for forgiveness,
instead he let his guilt drive him into despair and to suicide, neither
position a place of sacrifice for others; he had a debt he could not
pay and it destroyed him.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJayThis is another Biblical contradiction, KellyJay. According to St Luke (Acts 1:18),
...he let his guilt drive him into despair and to suicide...
Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong,
he burst open in the middle and all his bowls gushed out.
The verb 'burst open' (elakesen) does not mean 'burst himself open' but, instead
that his middle (mesos) burst open, as something filled too full.
Just a little footnote.
Nemesio
Originally posted by NemesioYeah, it's a physical impossibility for a rope to break under the strain of a writhing human body. What were the authors thinking? Where were the editors?
This is another Biblical contradiction, KellyJay. According to St Luke (Acts 1:18),
Now this man acquired a field with the reward of his wickedness; and falling headlong,
he burst open in the middle and all his bowls gushed out.
The verb 'burst open' (elakesen) does not mean 'burst himself open' but, instead
that his middle (mesos) burst open, as something filled too full.
Just a little footnote.
Nemesio
Originally posted by whodeyNo, Jesus did not have to sin to make the 'ultimate sacrifice.' He only had to make the greatest sacrifice. Under KJ's standard only the eternal matters, so Christ's sacrifice (in terms of what was given up, not what was gained) was infintesimally small. Judas chose to be the betrayer so that all mankind could be saved and this cost him his eternal spiritual life. What greater thing can a person sacrifice than their eternal life???
So the only way Jesus could have made the ultimate sacrifice would have been to sin and be damned like Judas? So the only way to make a true sacrifice is to do the wrong thing?
Your post makes it sound as though Judas did not have a will in the matter. I happen to disagree, however. Granted, God knew what he would do. I prefer not to go down the road of free will due to the fact we have been down it many, many times. We can agree to disagree.
Originally posted by KellyJayFirst of all, you don't know that he did not understand his crime. You are interpreting the passages as am I. Even steven.
Had he understood his crime he would not have done it, nor would
Satan have been moving him towards that end either. Even where
he was after his crime he avoided going to God for forgiveness,
instead he let his guilt drive him into despair and to suicide, neither
position a place of sacrifice for others; he had a debt he could not
pay and it destroyed him.
Kelly
It is sad that he did not repent beforehand, but then how could he have known what to do in the interim between lamb sacrifice and Christ rising from the dead? This makes him a tragic hero in my eyes. So much greatness, but just missed his opportunity in the end. Now he suffers continuously for us.
If you think about it Judas was damned either way because Jesus called him out among the disciples and proclaimed that Judas would betray him. If Judas didn't do it, he would have made a mockery out of Christ. He couldn't do that. So he faithfully played his part, at an inestimable cost to himself.
Originally posted by telerionHe betrayed someone who did him no harm, he stole from the money
First of all, you don't know that he did not understand his crime. You are interpreting the passages as am I. Even steven.
It is sad that he did not repent beforehand, but then how could he have known what to do in the interim between lamb sacrifice and Christ rising from the dead? This makes him a tragic hero in my eyes. So much greatness, but jus ...[text shortened]... . He couldn't do that. So he faithfully played his part, at an inestimable cost to himself.
bags while walking with Christ during the time Jesus was teaching and
showing the world who Christ was right before his eyes. When he
understood what he had done and there was no denying his evil
deeds he hung himself. Peter also denied Christ and repented, this
was taking place the same time Judas was going through what he was
going through. If you want to admire Judas, do so, but do not think
to many others will join you.
Kelly
You have painted an exaggerated picture of Judas. No doubt you have listened to long to the teachings of men who have poisoned the legacy of Judas. It is no surprise that these deny the Book of Judas, which along with the cannonical gospels supports my position.
If you want to admire Judas, do so, but do not think
to many others will join you.
Many choose the path of unrighteousness, but a few of us take the straight and narrow. I will boldy go forth. Persecute me if you must.