1. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 Jul '15 17:501 edit
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
  2. Standard memberchaney3
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    15 Jul '15 18:53
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
    If God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son......and by doing so, Jesus was crucified.....then ALL are saved, no matter what we do. There is no other way that this could make sense.

    As twitehead pointed out in a different thread.....true love does NOT demand anything in return, or it is not true love.

    Everybody goes to Heaven, once Jesus was crucified. The only other option is for God to demand our love in return for the crucifixion, which is not true love. We can choose to love Jesus, and show our gratitude by living the best possible life we can.....but, not for our eternal destiny, that is a done deal.

    There is NO longer a need for a 'Hell'......for anybody.
  3. Standard memberRajk999
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    15 Jul '15 19:381 edit
    Originally posted by chaney3
    If God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son......and by doing so, Jesus was crucified.....then ALL are saved, no matter what we do. There is no other way that this could make sense.

    As twitehead pointed out in a different thread.....true love does NOT demand anything in return, or it is not true love.

    Everybody goes to Heaven, once Je ...[text shortened]... ternal destiny, that is a done deal.

    There is NO longer a need for a 'Hell'......for anybody.
    Maybe you should have informed Christ that you cancelled hell and the lake of fire because Christ seems to think that when he returns he will cast the goats into the lake of fire. Read Matt 25.

    By the way who said anything about true love... whatever that means.
  4. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jul '15 12:44
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
    I notice there are not takers, so let me ask it another way.

    Were the Apostles under any Law .. either Law of Moses or any other Law?
  5. Standard membersonship
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    16 Jul '15 15:223 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
    It is possible to be like the Judaizers in Acts 15 who wanted the Gentile followers of Jesus to be circumcised and brought under the law of Moses.

    It is possible to be like the Judaizers who prompted Paul to have to write Galatians to the churches in Galatia.
  6. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jul '15 15:24
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I notice there are not takers, so let me ask it another way.

    Were the Apostles under any Law .. either Law of Moses or any other Law?
    Paul says in very plain language that he is under Grace.
    Paul also says very clearly that he is under Law.

    Cherrypickers will take the former statement and run with it, ignoring the second one.
    Truthseekers will accept both and attempt to make sense of the apparent contradiction thereby leading to greater understand of the issue.

    Which are you?
  7. Standard membersonship
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    16 Jul '15 15:27
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Paul says in very plain language that he is under Grace.
    Paul also says very clearly that he is under Law.

    Cherrypickers will take the former statement and run with it, ignoring the second one.
    Truthseekers will accept both and attempt to make sense of the apparent contradiction thereby leading to greater understand of the issue.

    Which are you?
    Labeling people is not as important as getting to the teaching of the New Testament.

    How to label people is secondary to understanding what is taught there in the Bible.
  8. Standard memberRajk999
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    16 Jul '15 15:32
    Originally posted by sonship
    It is possible to be like the Judaizers in [b]Acts 15 who wanted the Gentile followers of Jesus to be circumcised and brought under the law of Moses.

    It is possible to be like the Judaizers who prompted Paul to have to write Galatians to the churches in Galatia.[/b]
    I am not referring to that. Paul said he was under Law.
    Was he or was he not?
  9. Standard membersonship
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    16 Jul '15 15:381 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I am not referring to that. Paul said he was under Law.
    Was he or was he not?
    Paul lived a life according to "the law of the Spirit of life"
    (Rom. 8:2)
    .

    Christ the living Person within Paul was the law he lived by.
    In this way he was a pioneering forerunner of the normal Christian life.

    The living Person dwelling in him, one with him, flowing into all his soul and overflowing out into all of his reactions was the law he lived.

    It should be exactly the same for all lovers of Jesus Christ.
  10. Standard memberRajk999
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    17 Jul '15 15:45
    Originally posted by sonship
    Paul lived a life according to [b]"the law of the Spirit of life"
    (Rom. 8:2)
    .

    Christ the living Person within Paul was the law he lived by.
    In this way he was a pioneering forerunner of the normal Christian life.

    The living Person dwelling in him, one with him, flowing into all his soul and overflowing out into all of his reactions was the law he lived.

    It should be exactly the same for all lovers of Jesus Christ.[/b]
    It should be exactly the same for all Christians but it is NOT.

    Christ lives in all those people that follow his commandments.
    Christ knows them.
    They know Christ
    Christ abides in them
    They abide in Christ.

    In any case the Law of Christ or the Doctrine of Christ replaced the Law of Moses.
    You are fond of calling that legalistic but all people are under the Law of Christ because it is by that law that people will be judged.

    The law of Moses was replaced by the Law of Christ, therfore all people are under BOTH GRACE AND LAW. Just that it is the Law of Christ NOT the Law of Moses.

    Pauls letter the Hebrews explains what the New Covenant is all about and how it applies now to all people.
  11. Standard membersonship
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    18 Jul '15 05:362 edits
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    It should be exactly the same for all Christians but it is NOT.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But for many Paul's experience IS the daily experience of Christians. I am certain of it. How could you be so judgmental to know that none are inheriting the promises?

    Christ lives in all those people that follow his commandments.
    Christ knows them.
    They know Christ
    Christ abides in them
    They abide in Christ.

    -----------------------------------

    I know Christ and abide in Christ.
    I am in the process of learning to keep His word.

    Don't you think this is a life long manner of growth? The Apostle Paul said he did not account that he had arrived. But he stretched forward to gain more and more of Christ.

    So the believer born of God just yesterday can learn to abide in Christ AND the believer of many years is ALSO learning to abide in Christ keeping His inward commands.

    You have a funny elitist concept that even Paul did not display at the height of his ministry-

    "Not that I have already obtained or am already perfectied, but I pursue, if even I may lay hold of that for which I also have been laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

    Brothers, I do not account of myself to have laid hold, but one thing I do: Forgetting the things which are behind and stretching forward to the things which are before,

    I pursue toward the goal for the prize to which God in Christ Jesus has called me upward.

    Let us therefore, as many as are fullgrown, have this mind, ..." (See Phil. 3:12)


    The mind that Paul exhorts the Christians to have is not to assume that they have obtained or am perfected. But rather we should forget the good experiences of the past and stretch forward to gain more of Christ - experiencing Him in a deeper, richer way in the time before us.

    Paul also wanted to be found in Christ not having his own righteousness which is of the law but that righteousness which is of Christ and based on faith.

    "And be found in Him, not having my own righteousness which is out of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is out of God and based on faith." (v.9)


    That is also the righteousness I wish to be found in. Not the law keeping out of my own self effort. But the righteousness of taking Christ as my everything, by faith, abiding in this Living One as my all and all.

    We are around the globe in many cities on all five continents.
    We wish to be "imitators of those who are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 6:12)

    www.localchurches,org
  12. Standard memberlemon lime
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    18 Jul '15 07:191 edit
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    I am not referring to that. Paul said he was under Law.
    Was he or was he not?
    I'm not sure what the disagreement here is all about, so I'll just say being under grace doesn't give us permission for breaking the law.

    No one is able to perfectly keep the law (no one is perfect) so Christ came to fulfill all of the law (not sin) so he could become an advocate on our behalf. So now he is always standing between the accuser Satan and God the Father. Satan accuses, Yeshua says [your name] belongs to me, and the accusation is then invalidated because we belong to someone who cannot be accused of sin.

    The judicial mechanics of this is easy enough to understand, because we have our own system with attorneys and witnesses who can speak on our behalf before judges. And we are also able to understand how someone else paying our debt will get us off the hook, so that we can be held blameless and go free.

    I understand how it might seem odd that God the son would be speaking on our behalf to God the Father, especially in light of how both are manifestations of the same God. Some things are easy to understand because we can point to examples of how it would work in the material realm, whereas other aspects of it can't be directly compared to our earthly existence... so for someone like me this where faith necessarily needs to kick in, because there is no way to explain some parts of this in strictly materialistic terms...

    ========================================================================================

    Oh good grief, I meant to stop after saying "being under grace doesn't give us permission for breaking the law." It seems I can't even (perfectly) obey me. 😕
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    18 Jul '15 08:08
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
    Romans 6:14
    ...for you are not under law but under grace.

    Pretty clear I think.
  14. SubscriberSuzianne
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    18 Jul '15 10:30
    Originally posted by Rajk999
    Is it possible that Christians are under both Grace and Law, and that it is not necessary to pick one or the other?
    My first reaction is: not if you actually read the Bible.

    But I'll bite. Go forward with this thought and flesh out what you mean by this.
  15. Standard memberRajk999
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    18 Jul '15 11:33
    Originally posted by divegeester
    Romans 6:14
    ...for you are not under law but under grace.

    Pretty clear I think.
    Not under the Law of Moses, but under Grace... Yes. In speaking to the Jews who insisted in applying the Law of Moses Paul had to explain how grace works - Christ died and was resurrected so that all men are now free of sin in the flesh inherited from Adam. Paul explained that the New Covenant, which replaced the old, brought a new agreement with God and man.

    So all of mankind is under Grace PLUS under the Law of Christ or Doctrine of Christ.

    The idea the many Christians have that they need to follow no law and/or that they do not have to account for sin etc are incorrect and unbiblical doctrines.
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