14 Aug 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzoIt is clear to me that you are more committed to capitalism than you are to Jesus. You bend over backwards to try to make capitalism compatible with his teachings. But it isn't. It is the antithesis of them. As the bible says, "you cannot serve both God and Mammon." Like Jesus, I condemn usury. I condemn interest. And above all, I condemn the profit motive. So, yes, I condemn the selling of food for a profit. There will be no Kroger's in the Kingdom.
Society would collapse. No loans, no business, no money no investment. It would become a dog eat dog society. Unimaginative? Not quite. I imagine a society wracked with stagnation, unmotivated, uncreative. Copying what capitalist societies do. That's what forced the demise of the USSR. The broader reality is that commerce has existed far longer than any ...[text shortened]... ns the selling of food for a profit. Is it time to start picketing Kroger's?
It is clear to me that based on passages like Acts 2:42-45 and Acts 4:32-35 that the early Christian communities strove to institute a "gift economy" in accordance with Jesus' teachings. This would form the basis of the coming Kingdom, which was expected imminently. A Kingdom where the first would be last and the last would be first. It is my opinion that the communal Hutterite communities are the closest practitioners of what Jesus had in mind. Everyone else goes on worshipping Mammon on a daily basis. And that is why, after 2,000 years, the Kingdom still hasn't come.
14 Aug 09
2 edits
Originally posted by rwingettAnd I see you are firmly committed to a socialist/marxist world view which would forbid commerce, impoverish and make evreyone mediocre, unmotivated and completely dumbed down. What I see wrong with this is that in your society some are more equal than others and the socialist/marxist leadership never sticks to their principles. Do as I say, not as I do seems to be the socialist/marxist mantra. When one of the richest people on earth happens to be Fidel Castro, darling of your kind, then it is hard to see your system as one in which there is fairness. I am amused that you express such certitude about what there will and will not be in the world beyond. After all I seem to recall postings by you whereby you question the existence of God or that there will be a world beyond this one. Can't have it both ways. Either you believe or you don't.
It is clear to me that you are more committed to capitalism than you are to Jesus. You bend over backwards to try to make capitalism compatible with his teachings. But it isn't. It is the antithesis of them. As the bible says, "you cannot serve both God and Mammon." Like Jesus, I condemn usury. I condemn interest. And above all, I condemn the profit motive. mon on a daily basis. And that is why, after 2,000 years, the Kingdom still hasn't come.
Lastly, socialism/marxism is a system of death. Fetuses, the disabled, the elderly will be done away in your system of "fairness", to wit Terri Schiavo. Give me capitalism any day!
There really is no Biblical proscription of commerce or interest. You make it seem thus in order to undermine the belief system towards your ends of a post capitalist, soicalist/marxist world. What you espouse is utter nonsense. No one would grow food in your system. Why bother unless you can make a living off of growing food? Concrete circumstances, however, relative to the economic position of the lender and borrower may be involved and change the effects of the lending contract. Four external circumstances have an economic value and therefore constitute titles to a proportionate compensation over and above the restitution of what was loaned. They are: actual damage, loss of profit, risk to the object loaned, and danger from delay in returning what was lent(inflation). Only such titles, external to the loan, when truly present, justify the right to claim and the duty to pay a just rate of interest on money loaned.
Capitalism, with unlimited opportunities for investment, changed the function of money so that it can fructify. Consequently loaning money did not involve loss of profit to the lender and further risk of loss from delay inreturning the money loaned. By the end of the eighteenth century the distinction between usury and interest was recognized in civil law. The Church also recognized the distinction so that now only exorbitant interest is called usury and considered morally wrong. In the process, however, the Church's basic teaching on the subject did not change. Injustice surrounding money lending was and remains condemned. What changed was the economic system. As this changed, the circumstances under which an unjustice is committed changed. The Church necessarily permitted what was no longer unjust. (Etym. Latin usura, use of money lent, interest, from usus, use.)
14 Aug 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzoMarx? Who is talking about Marx? Certainly not me. It seems that like many right wingers, that's all you've been trained to argue against - the great Marxist bogeyman. I could bring up any topic and you'd invariably respond by slamming Marx yet again. Well nobody's talking about Marx. Nobody but you cares about Marx. So shut up about Marx already.
And I see you are firmly committed to a socialist/marxist world view which would forbid commerce, impoverish and make evreyone mediocre, unmotivated and completely dumbed down. What I see wrong with this is that in your society some are more equal than others and the socialist/marxist leadership never sticks to their principles. Do as I say, not as I do ...[text shortened]... hat was no longer unjust. (Etym. Latin usura, use of money lent, interest, from usus, use.)
Jesus was an anti-capitalist in all but name, but he was not a Marxist. However, he was, for all intents and purposes, a socialist. I know the mere mention of the word sends you into paroxysms of rage, but it is essentially true. He would not have recognized the word, but he fits the category. He was for the poor, against the rich, against the profit motive and wasn't the least bit concerned about the 'fructification' of money. And the Church (despite all its other faults) has had a strong anti-business history. These are all demonstrable facts.
But this all changed with the Protestant Reformation. The Reformation wasn't just about theology. It was also about economics. It was about removing the longstanding disdain for business and profit from Christian worship. It was about pretending that you can serve God and Mammon at the same time. It was about bankers and merchants adding a little profit to the prophets as they remade Jesus in their image as a pro-business messiah.
Well Jesus wasn't pro-business. He wasn't pro-capitalist. He was for the poor, the meek and the oppressed. Jesus was a socialist in all but name. If he were to return and see how badly you and others like you have twisted his message, I think even he would be tempted to punch you in the face.
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14 Aug 09
Duet 23:20
Unto a stranger thou mayest lend upon usury; but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon usury: that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all that thou settest thine hand to in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Luke 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettParoxysm or rage? What in what I've said do you find rageful? You are a marxist, but you will never admit it. Go ahead and hurl accusations, but I will not budge. The elimination of commerce and profit is central to the marxist ideals you espouse. And who are you to dictate what is and isn't central to Christianity. marxist bogeyman abounds in your culture of death. You wax admiringly about a heaven with projections of your earthly ideals of elimination of commerce. Alas it would never work because marxism has never strived for elimination of elites, hence we have Hugo Chavez, Castro, Putin, Zelaya, Evo in Bolivia. I bring up marx because he seems to be your god and you evidence it even arguing for elimination of selling of food for profit. Off to the collective we all go in your febrile mind. Let Castro and friends make profits, but not the people. Quite a desirable utopia, huh? Next you would eliminate religion because it does not conform to your twisted ideas of life, unless of course, it is within your parameters of bleak sameness. if that's not marxist what is? You're going to deny any of this? You even defended Hugo Chavez' curtailing freedom of the press in another thread. But you're not marxist and I'm in error? I believe not!
Marx? Who is talking about Marx? Certainly not me. It seems that like many right wingers, that's all you've been trained to argue against - the great Marxist bogeyman. I could bring up any topic and you'd invariably respond by slamming Marx yet again. Well nobody's talking about Marx. Nobody but you cares about Marx. So shut up about Marx already.
Jesus ...[text shortened]... u have twisted his message, I think even he would be tempted to punch you in the face.
You are the one advocating for violence by Jesus against me. Punching in the face by Jesus? That is puerile, risible and more twisting of religion to your ideals of violence. You would love Jesus to conform to your socialist ideals, wouldn't you? I am rageful yet you are the one paroxystic about being called what you really are, marxist to the core and hopeful that Jesus would join your dubious revolution.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzoYou've said absolutely nothing worth responding to here. Just more vacuous Marxist paranoia. Unless you have something of substance to add, I'm afraid our conversation will be over. But you know in your heart that Jesus was a proto-socialist and that you are the spawn of Satan.
Paroxysm or rage? What in what I've said do you find rageful? You are a marxist, but you will never admit it. Go ahead and hurl accusations, but I will not budge. The elimination of commerce and profit is central to the marxist ideals you espouse. And who are you to dictate what is and isn't central to Christianity. marxist bogeyman abounds in your cult ...[text shortened]... ally are, marxist to the core and hopeful that Jesus would join your dubious revolution.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettyouch
You've said absolutely nothing worth responding to here. Just more vacuous Marxist paranoia. Unless you have something of substance to add, I'm afraid our conversation will be over. But you know in your heart that Jesus was a proto-socialist and that you are the spawn of Satan.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzoI did not defend Hugo Chavez for curtailing freedom of the press. In your anti-Marxist tunnel vision, you obviously have me confused for someone else. I guess we anti-capitalists all sound alike to you. Marx, Jesus, can't tell 'em apart after a while.
Paroxysm or rage? What in what I've said do you find rageful? You are a marxist, but you will never admit it. Go ahead and hurl accusations, but I will not budge. The elimination of commerce and profit is central to the marxist ideals you espouse. And who are you to dictate what is and isn't central to Christianity. marxist bogeyman abounds in your cult ...[text shortened]... ally are, marxist to the core and hopeful that Jesus would join your dubious revolution.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettThe typical leftist rant. Run out of arguments and resort to name calling. I'm afraid I was wrong about you. You are no marxist, just a plain, tiresome leninist-bolshevist with vacuous ideas about how the world should run. Spawn of satan? Indeed! You are a useful idiot of the worst kind. Your worldview is one where Jesus would come back as your revolutionary. So now Jesus is only proto-socialist? Why I thought he was the inventor, according to you. Substance? Where's your substance? Just rants, invective, threats of violence yet accusations of paroxysms of rage about others? I'm afraid you simply have nothing but puerile comebacks, your usual style, but in keeping with your pseudointellectual nature. In your world bleakness reigns, sameness abounds and death pervades. Hope in your world is an epidemic of mediocrity unlike anyone could imagine. Abridgement of all freedoms including speech. Death to those who fail to confrom or march in lockstep to your landscape of bleakness. Persecution of those who fail to conform to your ideas of religion. After all, your political preferences caused more deaths than all 20th cty wars combined. I'll stick with capitalism. You stick to your tiresome, time-tested as failed political nonsense. perhaps you will remember my words as your are some day led to slaughter by your very own as they are so apt to do. After all, more died in the purges than in the holocaust. I'm sure a picture of Stalin adorns your wall, next to that of Castro and Mao despite their death mills. And you have the audacity to call me a spawn of satan!? Clean up your own sorry mind first then hurl the first stone. Your heroes are history's greatest murderers!
You've said absolutely nothing worth responding to here. Just more vacuous Marxist paranoia. Unless you have something of substance to add, I'm afraid our conversation will be over. But you know in your heart that Jesus was a proto-socialist and that you are the spawn of Satan.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by scacchipazzo😴
The typical leftist rant. Run out of arguments and resort to name calling. I'm afraid I was wrong about you. You are no marxist, just a plain, tiresome leninist-bolshevist with vacuous ideas about how the world should run. Spawn of satan? Indeed! You are a useful idiot of the worst kind. Your worldview is one where Jesus would come back as your revoluti ...[text shortened]... sorry mind first then hurl the first stone. Your heroes are history's greatest murderers!
You bore me, scacchipazzo.
You don't even address my position, except to obliquely imply that Jesus promotes mediocrity. Your entire argument consists of nothing but rambling anti-Marxist non sequitors. I'm afraid I have no further time to waste on you. Adios.
15 Aug 09
Originally posted by rwingettOh but I do address your position quite clearly. According to you Jesus is a revolutionary hack, a proto-socialist and punches people in the nose. Those who do not believe the way you do are spawns of satan and deserving of threats of violence and invective. You have some audacity calling others spawn of satan. Why look at you avatar, a clear depiction of the ugliness your ilk finds appealing. So now I bore you? I guess not enough to not respond. I believe you are very bit the marxist-leninist-bolshevist-stalinist-maoist hack you project onto Jesus. To top it all off you are dishonest by failing to admit your true colors. You pray at the altar of world's/history's greatest murderers. That's who you are. You won't respond not because I bore you but ebcause you simply have no answers. Keep on praying at the feet of evil, content with the blood on your hands of those millions upon millions of victims. At least I admit I'm a capitalist.
😴
You bore me, scacchipazzo.
You don't even address my position, except to obliquely imply that Jesus promotes mediocrity. Your entire argument consists of nothing but rambling anti-Marxist non sequitors. I'm afraid I have no further time to waste on you. Adios.