1. Subscriberduecer
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    12 Aug '09 16:42
    as shakespeare said "neither a borrowere nor a lender be."

    I'm interested in hearing what people from different faith backgrounds think about creditcards, mortgages, and other types of lending from a spiritual perspective.
  2. Donationrwingett
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    12 Aug '09 16:58
    Originally posted by duecer
    as shakespeare said "neither a borrowere nor a lender be."

    I'm interested in hearing what people from different faith backgrounds think about creditcards, mortgages, and other types of lending from a spiritual perspective.
    Usury should be strictly prohibited from a religious point of view. Charging interest will earn you a trip to the lake of fire.
  3. Standard memberkaroly aczel
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    13 Aug '09 01:17
    Originally posted by duecer
    as shakespeare said "neither a borrowere nor a lender be."

    I'm interested in hearing what people from different faith backgrounds think about creditcards, mortgages, and other types of lending from a spiritual perspective.
    Generally not a good idea. There are always exceptions
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    13 Aug '09 20:34
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Usury should be strictly prohibited from a religious point of view. Charging interest will earn you a trip to the lake of fire.
    You're one to comment on religion and what it ought to be or not be. Interest is only forbidden by Islam. I know of of no other religion that forbids interest. Usury and interest are not one and the same. It is only usury if the interest is exorbitant. Also, no one is forced to borrow. Without credit business would grind to a halt.
  5. Donationrwingett
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    13 Aug '09 20:54
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    You're one to comment on religion and what it ought to be or not be. Interest is only forbidden by Islam. I know of of no other religion that forbids interest. Usury and interest are not one and the same. It is only usury if the interest is exorbitant. Also, no one is forced to borrow. Without credit business would grind to a halt.
    Scrooge: But you were always a good man of business, Jacob.

    Marley: Business! Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!

    **********

    Usury originally meant charging any interest. It used to be one and the same. It eventually came to mean excessive interest. The Catholic Church historically has had a strong position against the charging of interest. It is one of the few areas where I agree with the Catholics.
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    13 Aug '09 21:37
    Originally posted by rwingett
    Scrooge: But you were always a good man of business, Jacob.

    Marley: Business! Mankind was my business. The common welfare was my business; charity, mercy, forbearance, and benevolence, were all my business. The dealings of my trade were but a drop of water in the comprehensive ocean of my business!

    **********

    Usury originally meant charging any int ...[text shortened]... n against the charging of interest. It is one of the few areas where I agree with the Catholics.
    And it led to the creation of double entry accounting, a brilliant business invention. The wheels of business would grind to a halt entirely. Then there would be no rich people to tax for socialist pet projects. Perhaps you're right. INterest should be banned. Socially mandated mediocrity will reign and we will all grow tails again. maybe, and maybe only then will socialists defend humans as if they were whales or spotted owls. Of course we would not know because we would all have to wear some variation of burqa. But that's OK since according to you then we would not be sent to the lake of fire.
  7. Donationrwingett
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    13 Aug '09 22:00
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    And it led to the creation of double entry accounting, a brilliant business invention. The wheels of business would grind to a halt entirely. Then there would be no rich people to tax for socialist pet projects. Perhaps you're right. INterest should be banned. Socially mandated mediocrity will reign and we will all grow tails again. maybe, and maybe onl ...[text shortened]... of burqa. But that's OK since according to you then we would not be sent to the lake of fire.
    The bible is filled with condemnations of usury. There are no passages praising usury. The inescapable conclusion is that if you are a Christian, you should be against usury. You should be against the charging of interest. The bible is not a capitalist economics textbook. Jesus was on the side of the poor and oppressed, not the movers and shakers of the business world.
  8. Subscriberduecer
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    13 Aug '09 22:15
    Exodus 22: "If you lend money to one of my people among you who is needy, do not be like a moneylender; charge him no interest. [a] 26 If you take your neighbor's cloak as a pledge, return it to him by sunset, 27 because his cloak is the only covering he has for his body. What else will he sleep in? When he cries out to me, I will hear, for I am compassionate.
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    14 Aug '09 00:15
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The bible is filled with condemnations of usury. There are no passages praising usury. The inescapable conclusion is that if you are a Christian, you should be against usury. You should be against the charging of interest. The bible is not a capitalist economics textbook. Jesus was on the side of the poor and oppressed, not the movers and shakers of the business world.
    Just tell me how you know whose side Jesus was on? Usury is undeniably evil, but the reality is that no one, but no one should have to lend money for free. Society as we know it would collapse. I fully agree with your stance on avoiding exploitation of the poor through usury, but we cannot function without loans made available to everyone. If people would simply decide to live within their means there would be no way for usurers to take advantage of them. Indeed there is no praise for usury in the Bible. That does not mean you get to interpret the Bible the way you want to justify your agenda, Same goes for Christians who engage in this very practice.
  10. Donationrwingett
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    14 Aug '09 00:31
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Just tell me how you know whose side Jesus was on? Usury is undeniably evil, but the reality is that no one, but no one should have to lend money for free. Society as we know it would collapse. I fully agree with your stance on avoiding exploitation of the poor through usury, but we cannot function without loans made available to everyone. If people wou ...[text shortened]... way you want to justify your agenda, Same goes for Christians who engage in this very practice.
    The bible tells us over and over and over that Jesus is on the side of the poor and the oppressed and against the rich. Apart from the Pauline mythology, it is the single biggest topic in the bible. Most Christians in this country are trained to overlook passages like Acts 4:32-35, but they're there whether you like it or not. Face it, Jesus was not a capitalist.

    Society would not collapse if interest payments were abolished. That's complete hogwash. Perhaps capitalism as we know it would collapse, but society would find some way to exist without capitalism. Shocking, I know. The only thing your diatribe exposes is your complete lack of imagination and your inability to conceptualize any society that is fundamentally different from the one you now inhabit. Well let me assure you, the Kingdom will not be anything like capitalist America.
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    14 Aug '09 00:531 edit
    Originally posted by duecer
    as shakespeare said "neither a borrowere nor a lender be."

    I'm interested in hearing what people from different faith backgrounds think about creditcards, mortgages, and other types of lending from a spiritual perspective.
    Why are you attacking usuary? After all, it is the basis of our economy. 😠
  12. Donationrwingett
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    14 Aug '09 00:59
    Originally posted by whodey
    Why are you attacking usuary? After all, it is the basis of our economy. 😠
    No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other; or else he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You can not serve both God and Mammon.

    Matthew 6:24
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    14 Aug '09 03:372 edits
    Originally posted by rwingett
    The bible tells us over and over and over that Jesus is on the side of the poor and the oppressed and against the rich. Apart from the Pauline mythology, it is the single biggest topic in the bible. Most Christians in this country are trained to overlook passages like Acts 4:32-35, but they're there whether you like it or not. Face it, Jesus was not a capit now inhabit. Well let me assure you, the Kingdom will not be anything like capitalist America.
    Society would collapse. No loans, no business, no money no investment. It would become a dog eat dog society. Unimaginative? Not quite. I imagine a society wracked with stagnation, unmotivated, uncreative. Copying what capitalist societies do. That's what forced the demise of the USSR. The broader reality is that commerce has existed far longer than any other system. Usury indeed is evil and the Bible outlines it thus. Yet usury is invoked as evil under the circumstances of predatory lending. Jesus was apolitical. To pigeonhole him as a socialist is incorrect. Nor was he a capitalist.

    Here's some Biblical passages:

    The New Testament parable of the ten gold pieces refers to the concept of "usury" or "interest": a nobleman says to his servants:

    "Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury?" -Luke 19:23

    "Finally the master said to him "Why then didn't you put my money on deposit, so that when I came back, I could have collected it with interest?'" -Luke 19:23

    "Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury" - Matthew 25:27

    On the other hand Luke 6:35 says "But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great". Many interpret this as condemning usury, while others see it as a call to personal altruism and not a general prohibition on usury, which they see as a wise business practice that is not referenced in this verse.

    Those who seek to condemn lending or any other type of lending as usury need to be careful about how they use this word. For instance, when supporting the ban on lending, some like you have said that usury was "one of the oldest of sins." Unless you are prepared to condemn all interest, there is no Biblical basis upon which to stand. And, in fact, it also seems that, to be consistent with the Biblical prohibitions, they must also condemn a variety of other things. For instance, one of the verses in Leviticus which condemns usury also condemns the selling of food for a profit. Is it time to start picketing Kroger's?
  14. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    14 Aug '09 07:14
    Originally posted by duecer
    as shakespeare said "neither a borrowere nor a lender be."

    I'm interested in hearing what people from different faith backgrounds think about creditcards, mortgages, and other types of lending from a spiritual perspective.
    A usuary is a place where usurers hang out?

    Usury makes for bad energy, man. Dame Fortune gets all het up!
  15. Standard memberBosse de Nage
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    14 Aug '09 07:15
    Originally posted by scacchipazzo
    Society would collapse. No loans, no business, no money no investment. It would become a dog eat dog society.
    It is a dog-eat-dog society ...
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