1. Shetland Primary
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    10 May '05 09:47
    As a Christian I believe that God created man in his own image. I believe God cares for his children, and has given us instructions and assignments. I also believe that God teaches his children, makes a covenant with them, concerns himself with endless patience with them and gave His only son to die for our sins so that we may receive salvation through His son, Jesus Christ. In the relationship between God and man I believe that there are three main moments, namely the creation, the fall of man and the salvation of man, as distinguished in the Bible. Thus I see man as a unique being with an own individuality, personality, intellectual (reasoning) capacity, life-will, radically different from God, his fellowman and animals. I see man as an answerable being: he is called by his milieu, his ability, society, his neighbor and above all: God; he must answer independently to all tasks assigned to him, according to the demands of God. The pragmatist sees man differently. They see man as a changing person who cannot be guided by what he or his ancestors were in the past, because everything is constantly changing. He does not have an image of what he will be in the future: he does not see the end of the road. The person of Pragmatism will thus not ask what tomorrow will look like, but will do what at the moment looks the best from the point of view of the practice. As believers in Evolution they believe that that we are simply the products of random chance and for that reason are simply a form of a higher evolved animal. Thus the pragmatist does not know where he is going, but does not hesitate to place one foot in front of the other. The liberalist also sees man as always changing with unlimited development possibilities. This is totally opposite to my Biblical view that man has been spoiled by sin and limited his possibilities. Liberalism believes that man is only born ignorant, not wicked. They believe that there is no evil in him that presents society from attaining its aim of peace, freedom, fairness and prosperity if ignorance and poor social conditions are removed. I believe that man is a broken being: the power of sin over man is totally destructive; all his functions are affected by it; all relationships are broken; yet he did not become an animal – he can still be educated, be accountable and responsible. I also see man as a relationship being: he is constantly involved with God, his fellow man and the things around him; he remains an individual in the community; bound to God’s laws and norms; love plays a special role in these relationships. I also believe that through faith in Christ, men receives salvation, he is delivered form sin through the renewal of the holy spirit; in this way becomes a citizen of the Kingdom of God. All that man can do for his salvation is to accept it in faith and gratitude.

    What are your views?
  2. Standard memberMaustrauser
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    10 May '05 13:00
    Yep - I'm a liberal atheist. And proud of it.

    Your views on the so-called 'pragmatist' seem rather peculiar. I don't think 'pragmatism' is as shallow as you portray.
  3. Shetland Primary
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    10 May '05 13:14
    Originally posted by Maustrauser
    Yep - I'm a liberal atheist. And proud of it.

    Your views on the so-called 'pragmatist' seem rather peculiar. I don't think 'pragmatism' is as shallow as you portray.
    As a liberal atheist, do you believe in absolute values? As far as I get it Liberalism not only denies the existance of absolute values, but also God, the source of such values. Is that correct?
  4. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    10 May '05 13:19
    Originally posted by Maustrauser
    Yep - I'm a liberal atheist. And proud of it.

    Your views on the so-called 'pragmatist' seem rather peculiar. I don't think 'pragmatism' is as shallow as you portray.
    I get the idea that since god made us in his own image the image DJ has of humanity is in reality the image of his god.
  5. Donationbbarr
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    10 May '05 13:22
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    As far as I get it Liberalism not only denies the existance of absolute values, but also God, the source of such values. Is that correct?
    Where on Earth did you get that idea? Liberalism does not deny the existence of absolute values (that is relativism, not liberalism). Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism. If you are interested in educating yourself on liberalism, you should start with the following site:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Phil
  6. Shetland Primary
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    10 May '05 13:35
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Where on Earth did you get that idea? Liberalism does not deny the existence of absolute values (that is relativism, not liberalism). Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism. If you are interested in educating yourself on liberalism, you should start with the following site:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Phil
    Well I read that one of the basic doctrines of liberalism is that nothing stands firm except that reason will be victorious.
  7. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    10 May '05 13:39
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    As a liberal atheist, do you believe in absolute values? As far as I get it Liberalism not only denies the existance of absolute values, but also God, the source of such values. Is that correct?
    If you ain't a liberal you are a "churl" ,whatever the heck dat is

  8. Donationbbarr
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    10 May '05 13:41
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Well I read that one of the basic doctrines of liberalism is that nothing stands firm except that reason will be victorious.
    Read different things. Start by reading works by people who know what liberalism is. Again, you could do worse than by reading that link I provided you above.
  9. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    10 May '05 13:52
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    Well I read that one of the basic doctrines of liberalism is that nothing stands firm except that reason will be victorious.
    I'm stumped I cant dig up an antonym for "reason"

    I am guessing this is the working definition here:

    reason : the capacity for rational thought or inference or discrimination

    Im wondering if you're are suggesting that the incapacity for rational thought is the essense of non-liberalism.

    if dat be da case , more power 2 ya kiddo
  10. Shetland Primary
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    10 May '05 14:45
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Where on Earth did you get that idea? Liberalism does not deny the existence of absolute values (that is relativism, not liberalism). Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism. If you are interested in educating yourself on liberalism, you should start with the following site:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Phil
    Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism.

    Modern liberalism is virtually a mixture of virually the whole mass of post-Renaissance thought. It contains traces of the same utopism as Rationalism and Communism; it has a strong pragmatic undertone together with the new idea if equality.

    Would you mind explaining how this is compatible with Christianity?
  11. Donationbbarr
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    10 May '05 15:13
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism.

    Modern liberalism is virtually a mixture of virually the whole mass of post-Renaissance thought. It contains traces of the same utopism as Rationalism and Communism; it has a strong pragmatic undertone together with the new idea if equality.

    Would you mind explaining how this is compatible with Christianity?[/b]
    Have you read that link I gave you yet? If not, then why should I waste my valuable time trying to educate you. Educate yourself! You don't know what liberalism is, you don't know what pragmatism is, you don't know what you are talking about. The fact that you would claim that liberalism contains traces of the same utopism (sic) as communism (!) indicates your complete and utter ignorance of liberalism and liberal (in the enlightenment sense) thought. Please, to save yourself further embarassment, read the link I provided above. Then go to the bathroom and wipe the egg off your face.
  12. Donationrwingett
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    10 May '05 16:14
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism.

    Modern liberalism is virtually a mixture of virually the whole mass of post-Renaissance thought. It contains traces of the same utopism as Rationalism and Communism; it has a strong pragmatic undertone together with the new idea if equality.

    Would you mind explaining how this is compatible with Christianity?[/b]
    From the Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary:

    Liberalism:
    1: The quality or state of being liberal
    2a: often cap: a movement in modern Protestantism ephasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity
    2b: a theory in econoomics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usu. based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard
    2c: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of man, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties
    2d: cap: the principles and policies of a Liberal party

    Pragmatism:
    1: a pratical approach to problems and affairs <tried to strike a balance between principles and ~>
    2: an American movement in philosophy founded by C. S. Pierce and William James and marked by the doctrines that the meaning of conceptions is to be sought in their practical bearings, that the function of thought is to guide action, and that truth is preeminently to be tested by the practical consequences of belief
  13. Standard memberColetti
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    10 May '05 16:531 edit
    Originally posted by bbarr
    Where on Earth did you get that idea? Liberalism does not deny the existence of absolute values (that is relativism, not liberalism). Liberalism is also compatible with Christianity and is not committed to atheism. If you are interested in ...[text shortened]... lowing site:

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberalism/#Phil
    Instead of rejecting dj2becker 's definition of liberalism - maybe you should accept that he does not use the textbook philosophical definition. There are many ways to define liberalism, and not all describe the same kind of belief system.

    As rwingett quote notes, there is a liberal wing of protestant churches. The movement towards liberalism began in the 1920's I believe and continues today. I my denomination, it lead to the split of the Presbyterian Church into todays PCUSA, and PCA. The PCUSA is the larger liberal denomination. It pushed liberalism in the form of "intellectual tolerance." This "big tent" view of the church lead to a denomination with no identity or standards. The PCUSA is also famous the fight to have gay clergy. The smaller PCA held to it's doctrinal integrity. Although this turned off some people, it has maintained it's identify with the Reformation. When you go to a PCA church, you basically know what it believes.

    There are many views of liberalism - dj2becker's definition is related to liberal from a Christian perspective. There are connections to political liberalism, and philosophical liberalism. But they are not one and the same.

    (Besides liberalism, one of the hot issues in the church in the 20's was evolutionism.)
  14. Standard memberfrogstomp
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    10 May '05 17:051 edit
    Originally posted by Coletti
    Instead of rejecting dj2becker 's definition of liberalism - maybe you should accept that he does not use the textbook philosophical definition. There are many ways to define liberalism, and not all describe the same kind of belief system ...[text shortened]... ne of the hot issues in the church in the 20's was evolutionism.)
    dj2 gives enough info on what he thinks liberalism is in his opening post.

    like :
    The liberalist also sees man as always changing with unlimited development possibilities

    Liberalism believes that man is only born ignorant, not wicked. They believe that there is no evil in him that presents society from attaining its aim of peace, freedom, fairness and prosperity if ignorance and poor social conditions are removed


    kudos to ya dj2 ,,, but what is anti-christian about that?
  15. Shetland Primary
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    10 May '05 18:10
    Originally posted by frogstomp
    dj2 gives enough info on what he thinks liberalism is in his opening post.

    like :
    The liberalist also sees man as always changing with unlimited development possibilities

    Liberalism believes that man is only born ignorant, not wicked. They believe that there is no evil in him that presents society from attaining its aim of peace, freedom, ...[text shortened]... conditions are removed


    kudos to ya dj2 ,,, but what is anti-christian about that?
    The Bible says we are born in sin. This means that we are wicked by nature, and means that we have a sinful nature no matter under which conditions we live.
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