Originally posted by Maustrauser My Mum cares for me. And does my wife. And my kids. And my friends. And my dog. And my chooks. What do I need with a fairy tale? And why do you care so much about my wicked sinful soul? Go and save someone else...Darfius for instance.
Curious, I take it this is unconditional love, i.e. irrespective of what you do to the members of your family they will still love you ?
Originally posted by pcaspian Originally posted by Maustrauser [b]My Mum cares for me. And does my wife. And my kids. And my friends. And my dog. And my chooks. What do I need with a fairy tale? And why do you care so much about my wicked sinful soul? Go and save someone else...Darfius for instance.
Curious, I take it this is unconditional love, i.e. irrespective of what you do to the members of your family they will still love you ?[/b]
I'm not sure there's any such thing as unconditional love.
Originally posted by eagles54 I definitely believe there is such a thing. When one's own attachment to 'self' is lessened, compassion arises naturally.
Yes, but unconditional means that it wouldn't matter what happened, nothing could break that bond. This is not the same as a natural instinct to love someone.
Unconditional-to-a-point love, I could believe in, but for example were my mother to murder my girlfriend (or any number of other scenarios), I doubt very much whether I could continue to love her.
Originally posted by Starrman Yes, but unconditional means that it wouldn't matter what happened, nothing could break that bond. This is not the same as a natural instinct to love someone.
Unconditional-to-a-point love, I could believe in, but for example were my mother to murder my girlfriend (or any number of other scenarios), I doubt very much whether I could continue to love her.
Good point Starrman.
The scripture says that it is difficult to die for a good man, let alone for a sinful man ... more than forgive, but to die for. Christ not only forgave, but died for those who killed Him ... and for all who would believe in Him.
That truly is the love of God, unconditional, regardless of whether you are simply a gossip or murderer ... it is completely unconditional.
It is truly the kindness of God that led me to repentance.
Originally posted by Starrman Yes, but unconditional means that it wouldn't matter what happened, nothing could break that bond. This is not the same as a natural instinct to love someone.
Unconditional-to-a-point love, I could believe in, but for example were my mother to murder my girlfriend (or any number of other scenarios), I doubt very much whether I could continue to love her.
That's because you, like nearly everyone, has attachment to self and other, a relative, conditioned duality. If you were able to transcend that duality your viewpoint would be very different. As attachment to self lessens, compassion for others ensnared in limitless ignorance is strengthened. I'm not saying it is any small thing to accomplish, but I think it is possible. At the point that you reached such an unconditional state, you likely would not have a girlfriend because you would clearly see that your 'love' for one another is conditioned by your own attachments and not from selflessness.
Originally posted by eagles54 That's because you, like nearly everyone, has attachment to self and other, a relative, conditioned duality. If you were able to transcend that duality your viewpoint would be very different. As attachment to self lessens, compassion for others ensnared in limitless ignorance is strengthened. I'm not saying it is any small thing to accomplish, but I think ...[text shortened]... your 'love' for one another is conditioned by your own attachments and not from selflessness.
And you believe aiming for such a state is the correct thing to do? I would be interested to hear more about his. Would you care to elaborate on how and why such a state would be achieved?
Originally posted by Acts29 Good point Starrman.
The scripture says that it is difficult to die for a good man, let alone for a sinful man ... more than forgive, but to die for. Christ not only forgave, but died for those who killed Him ... and for all who would believe in Him.
That truly is the love of God, unconditional, regardless of whether you are simply a gossip or murderer ... it is completely unconditional.
It is truly the kindness of God that led me to repentance.
God's love is far from unconditional. In fact it is love under threat of violence. Accept god or go to hell.
Originally posted by Starrman And you believe aiming for such a state is the correct thing to do? I would be interested to hear more about his. Would you care to elaborate on how and why such a state would be achieved?
I believe you should live your life as you best see fit.
Such a state can only be achieved by understanding one's mind in its pure state, free from attachment to the illusory self.
Originally posted by eagles54 I believe you should live your life as you best see fit.
Such a state can only be achieved by understanding one's mind in its pure state, free from attachment to the illusory self.
But to detach yourself fully is to elimintate the link between you and society is it not? You would be taking away all the instincts that have caused society to grow as it has. Surely such a state is not condusive to the furtherance of the species? Or have I misunderstood?
I would like clarification on the 'illusory self' if possible. Do you mean that the self is illusory, or that there is something called the 'illusory self' which is seperate to the'self'?
Originally posted by Starrman God's love is far from unconditional. In fact it is love under threat of violence. Accept god or go to hell.
That is a common misconception.
We are not given life because we believe in Jesus and condemned because we don't believe in Him.
We are ALL doomed to hell because our sin is unacceptable from the perspective of the eternal, perfect, just, holy God ... remember, our perspective is pretty limited, we compare ourselves with the people around us, makes us seem pretty ok.
God offers unconditionally to take on Himself the death we ALREADY deserve because of our sin. All who call on the name of the Lord will be saved ... from the justice that their sin deserves. He was punished for our misconduct.
Originally posted by Starrman But to detach yourself fully is to elimintate the link between you and society is it not? You would be taking away all the instincts that have caused society to grow as it has. Surely such a state is not condusive to the furtherance of the species? Or have I misunderstood?
I would like clarification on the 'illusory self' if possible. Do you mean ...[text shortened]... usory, or that there is something called the 'illusory self' which is seperate to the'self'?
Maybe a new thread is called for? 🙂
No, lessening attachment to one's self does not necessarily mean a person shuns all communal ties. Actually, quite the opposite. A person can more fully open themselves to others when the incessant need to buoy 'self' is eased.
"Illusory" self means that the feeling of self is imputed onto thoughts, feelings, emotions and such as a real, unchanging entity. When a person looks for this self, this entity that seems to be so real and vivid, no self can be found. The person can cultivate real love and compassion because they know directly that others operate through ignorance of their actual nature, causing themselves and others great pain and difficulties whether intended or not.
Originally posted by eagles54 Maybe a new thread is called for? 🙂
No, lessening attachment to one's self does not necessarily mean a person shuns all communal ties. Actually, quite the opposite. A person can more fully open themselves to others when the incessant need to buoy 'self' is eased.
"Illusory" self means that the feeling of self is imputed onto thoughts, feelings, ...[text shortened]... ctual nature, causing themselves and others great pain and difficulties whether intended or not.
Yes perhaps a new thread should be created. Could you point me to anywhere I can research this some more? I am unfamiliar with the notion and am interested to learn more.
VOTE- IS GOD REALLY?
15 Mar '05 13:16
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