1. SubscriberFMF
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    03 Mar '09 12:54
    Was Jesus executed unjustly?
  2. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 13:40
    Originally posted by FMF
    Was Jesus executed unjustly?
    It depends on who you ask.
  3. SubscriberFMF
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    03 Mar '09 13:50
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    It depends on who you ask.
    Don't you feel as if I've asked you?
  4. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 13:56
    Originally posted by FMF
    Don't you feel as if I've asked you?
    Sorry, I was anticipating the eventual course of the conversation.

    If you ask me, Jesus was indeed executed unjustly.
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    03 Mar '09 14:09
    Originally posted by FMF
    Was Jesus executed unjustly?
    No executions are "just".

    One of the ironies is that so many Christians support the death penalty. Those who do so and purport to believe in compassion, love, forgiveness, redemption, etc. are about as hypocritical as one can get.
  6. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 14:19
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    No executions are "just".

    One of the ironies is that so many Christians support the death penalty. Those who do so and purport to believe in compassion, love, forgiveness, redemption, etc. are about as hypocritical as one can get.
    Is it just for God to kill? Is it just for God to send unrepentant sinners to eternal damnation?
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    03 Mar '09 14:22
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    Is it just for God to kill? Is it just for God to send unrepentant sinners to eternal damnation?
    How are these questions relevant to my assertions?
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    03 Mar '09 14:36
    Originally posted by FMF
    Was Jesus executed unjustly?
    What would be the fate of christianity if he wasn't executed?
    What would he do instead? Hang himself from a tree?
  9. Standard memberScriabin
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    03 Mar '09 15:45
    the question answers itself. execution may be said by those who claim the authority to carry it out to be legal, but no amount of authority allows the state or anyone the power or legitimacy correctly to call it just.

    Of course, there are different ideas about what justice is.

    As a lawyer, I simply don't see execution ever as justice.

    Jesus was killed fundamentally for political reasons, in my opinion. So, he clearly was made to die for an unjust reason.

    Everything else about the execution of Jesus, whether it was pre-ordained, whether it was necessary for Christianity to exist, are all immaterial and irrelevant to the question posed.
  10. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 16:273 edits
    Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
    How are these questions relevant to my assertions?
    God is compassionate and forgiving, and no doubt condones acts of compassion and forgiveness, yet He has killed unapologetically in the past. He has vowed to judge the living and the dead, intending to send unrepentant sinners to hell. Is it just for God to do so?

    The reason this question is relevant, I believe, is because you have asserted that there are absolutely no just executions, and yet the Bible testifies that many executions were carried out by God Himself. If God is just, and God has deemed it necessary to kill on occasion, we should be able to assume that at least some executions are, in fact, just. Would you agree?

    Furthermore, the necessity of Christ's crucifixion as a propitiatory sacrifice is a fate we must understand to have been meant for sinful man under the Law. Therefore, if Christ died in man's place, suffering the penalty meant for sinners, including humiliation and execution via crucifixion, then we can assume that there must be such a thing as a "just execution."

    If we follow your line of reasoning, that there are no just executions, the entire Bible would be rendered superfluous and irrelevant. At issue is always the sovereign authority of Almighty God. I suppose you can begin to see why your position is untenable to Bible-believing Christians.
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    03 Mar '09 17:075 edits
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    God is compassionate and forgiving, and no doubt condones acts of compassion and forgiveness, yet He has killed unapologetically in the past. He has vowed to judge the living and the dead, intending to send unrepentant sinners to hell. Is it just for God to do so?

    The reason this question is relevant, I believe, is because you have asserted that the I suppose you can begin to see why your position is untenable to Bible-believing Christians.
    No man is God. No government is God.

    Executions are the actions of the self-righteous who have abandoned compassion, love, forgiveness, etc., for vengeance.

    No man or government has can unerringly judge another man as unredeemable. They seem to have enough difficulty with judging guilt or innocence.

    Can you not see how your questions are irrelevant to my assertions?
  12. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Mar '09 17:10
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    God is compassionate and forgiving, and no doubt condones acts of compassion and forgiveness, yet He has killed unapologetically in the past. He has vowed to judge the living and the dead, intending to send unrepentant sinners to hell. Is it just for God to do so?

    The reason this question is relevant, I believe, is because you have asserted that the ...[text shortened]... I suppose you can begin to see why your position is untenable to Bible-believing Christians.
    Well, this raises the whole question of whether (1) God is just because God acts justly—in which case, one is in need of a definition of what acting justly entails—or, (2) God is simply declared to act justly by virtue of divine sovereign authority—which is essentially a declaration by fiat.

    It really doesn’t matter that Biblical authors declare that God acts justly, if one has no idea what “acting justly” entails. Without some definition, one cannot say what that means.

    One ought to be able to say: “__________ has acted justly”—and fill in the blank with Tim or Jill or God, or anybody, and be able to communicate a meaningful concept. And if there are exceptions for God that do not apply to anybody else, then they ought to be enumerated and explained (“In God’s case, X is a just act, even if it is not just for you and I, because . . .” ). But such exceptions would still have to be comprehensible, at least, without violating the proffered definition of “acting justly”.

    [I don’t know for sure whether you hew to (1) or (2); it does appear as if you are outlining your understanding of why (from a divine perspective) Jesus’ execution was just, which implies that you hold to (1)?]

    ________________________________________

    I vote “unjustly executed”, by the way. If that would render the “entire Bible superfluous and irrelevant”, so be it. I don’t know that it would, but it’s not an issue for me.
  13. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 17:24
    Originally posted by vistesd
    Well, this raises the whole question of whether (1) God is just because God acts justly—in which case, one is in need of a definition of what acting justly entails—or, (2) God is simply declared to act justly by virtue of divine sovereign authority—which is essentially a declaration by fiat.

    It really doesn’t matter that Biblical authors declare that God ...[text shortened]... uperfluous and irrelevant”, so be it. I don’t know that it would, but it’s not an issue for me.
    I believe God is just because God acts justly, definitely. It is another matter to comprehend precisely why His judgments are just.
  14. Hmmm . . .
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    03 Mar '09 18:15
    Originally posted by epiphinehas
    I believe God is just because God acts justly, definitely. It is another matter to comprehend precisely why His judgments are just.
    I’m not sure that I have a particularly well-formed notion of what defines “acting justly” myself. And perhaps Scriabin and others can help out there. I would include such things as the penalty fitting the crime, taking account of mitigating circumstances, etc.

    The basic question becomes (to re-word your “why” ): “What makes a just act just?” What are the criteria?

    In the absence of what seems to me to be a sufficient answer, I would have to remain agnostic on the question of whether at least some of God’s judgments acts are, in fact, just. My sense of the need for the penalty to fit the crime does, however, lead me to conclude that eternal punishment/suffering/torment, etc. is not just (after all, however sinful human beings may be thought to be, whatever the nature of some acquired “sin nature”, they have not been sinful eternally, but only for the duration of this lifetime). [That issue is not particularly on point to the opening question, however.]

    This one might be: If God’s act of “propitiatory sacrifice” is just, and requires that certain men commit unjust acts to bring it off (e.g., God did not simply “roll the dice” on a good bet), does that not imply at least some mitigating circumstance? Might not Jesus’ acts designed to lead to execution on the cross be considered a kind of “entrapment”?

    How does “what makes a just act just” differ here from a strictly human case? (For example, does a Nuremberg-type argument hold when the “seducer” is God? How much depended on their remaining ignorant of the role of the divine personage?) And if they are held to be guilty, what is a just punishment?
  15. Illinois
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    03 Mar '09 20:471 edit
    Originally posted by vistesd
    I’m not sure that I have a particularly well-formed notion of what defines “acting justly” myself. And perhaps Scriabin and others can help out there. I would include such things as the penalty fitting the crime, taking account of mitigating circumstances, etc.

    The basic question becomes (to re-word your “why” ): “What makes a just act just? of the divine personage?) And if they are held to be guilty, what is a just punishment?
    Good questions, vistesd. I wish I had definitive answers to them. I'll have to think on it.
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