1. Joined
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    07 Oct '11 23:16
    If God created the universe then what created God?

    Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

    It is circular but not laughably so.

    Just read on.

    Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    The absolute value of any given point can be 0(creation/ including the creation of God.) The line extends to infinity on either side of point 0 giving you an elementary number line. However, if any given point can be 0 then every given point can be 0. Thus, if creation is infinite then God could have created himself. Sort of Infinitely creating himself(and everything else) for Eternity.

    This supports the quote, "I am the Alpha and the Omega the beginning and the end." I guess it could be changed to "I am the beginnning and the end, zero and infinity" I always found an infinite universe to be strangely more believable than one with a clear beginning and end.

    I don't put this forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.
  2. Joined
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    07 Oct '11 23:28
    I don't think there is any escape from circular reasoning in posing that you need a first cause,
    calling it god, then claiming god had a cause, and that god was god's cause.

    I don't think there is any solution to what the 'first cause' is in a finite line of causality.

    And putting god in the mix doesn't help at all.

    So if you have no answer to what the first cause was with god, why bother with god at all,
    and simply say you don't know how the universe formed.

    OR

    You make the universe an infinite causal chain (ie; it has no beginning) and you don't have the
    problem at all.


    There is a nice video of Carl Sagan saying this but much better, which would be fantastic to link
    here if I could find it...
    Must remember to bookmark things....
  3. Standard memberAgerg
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    07 Oct '11 23:29
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    If God created the universe then what created God?

    Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

    It is circular but not laughably so.

    Just read on.

    Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    The absolute value of a ...[text shortened]... s forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.
    Before I ask any more questions or try to fathom your `argument' here what do you mean by

    The absolute value of any given point can be 0(creation/ including the creation of God.)
  4. Standard memberwolfgang59
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    07 Oct '11 23:29
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    If God created the universe then what created God?

    Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

    It is circular but not laughably so.

    Just read on.

    Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    The absolute value of a ...[text shortened]... s forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.
    God is created from a singularity arising from the collapse of the previous god.
  5. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 00:09
    Originally posted by tomtom232
    If God created the universe then what created God?

    Well, I propose that God did. What, you say? That is laughably circular!

    It is circular but not laughably so.

    Just read on.

    Take an infinite line, we'll call it eternity.

    <----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->

    The absolute value of a ...[text shortened]... s forward as a fact just as a possible and interesting answer to a controversial question.
    If it is possible for God to raise Himself from the dead, then it is also
    possibe He created Himself. All things are possible with God. But I
    don't ponder such things, for to me God is and that is awesome
    enough for me.
  6. Standard memberAgerg
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    08 Oct '11 00:13
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    I don't think there is any escape from circular reasoning in posing that you need a first cause,
    calling it god, then claiming god had a cause, and that god was god's cause.

    I don't think there is any solution to what the 'first cause' is in a finite line of causality.

    And putting god in the mix doesn't help at all.

    So if you have no answer to ...[text shortened]... be fantastic to link
    here if I could find it...
    Must remember to bookmark things....
    The problem I'm having immediately with the OP's argument, setting aside any mathematical ambiguities is that if god creates itself then at any such moment of creation there exists no god to create anything (otherwise its creation would not be required), rendering its creation logically impossible
  7. Joined
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    08 Oct '11 00:191 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    The problem I'm having immediately with the OP's argument, setting aside any mathematical ambiguities is that if god creates itself then at any such moment of creation there exists no god to create anything (otherwise its creation would not be required), rendering its creation logically impossible
    Precisely.

    You can perhaps have self creating items if you have time travel allowing for the creator to
    go back in time and create itself.
    But This is usually considered a paradox,
    And the existence of time travel creates paradoxes on its own.

    So this can't really be considered a legitimate solution to the problem.

    Fundamentally your only viable alternatives are 'I don't know' or something has existed forever.

    If you have something existing forever, thus not needing a first cause, you have no need of
    god to create anything, and be the fist cause.


    EDIT: and of course time is one of the things (along with space) that need explaining and causing.
  8. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 00:36
    Originally posted by Agerg
    The problem I'm having immediately with the OP's argument, setting aside any mathematical ambiguities is that if god creates itself then at any such moment of creation there exists no god to create anything (otherwise its creation would not be required), rendering its creation logically impossible
    That's the neat thing about God, He can transcend out logic.
  9. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 00:381 edit
    Originally posted by Agerg
    The problem I'm having immediately with the OP's argument, setting aside any mathematical ambiguities is that if god creates itself then at any such moment of creation there exists no god to create anything (otherwise its creation would not be required), rendering its creation logically impossible
    That's the neat thing about God, He can transcend our logic.
  10. Subscribersonhouse
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    08 Oct '11 00:50
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    That's the neat thing about God, He can transcend out logic.
    Why does it have to be a HE?
  11. Joined
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    08 Oct '11 00:56
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Why does it have to be a HE?
    See my bigger problem was a being to whom logic couldn't be applied.

    Rendering it impossible to say anything about him/her/it/god/s at all.

    This goes back to the omnipotence thing.

    If got is omnipotent, then god could create an object so heavy, not even god could lift it.
    But if god can't move it then got isn't omnipotent.

    If god can't create an object that even god can't lift then god isn't omnipotent.

    If logic doesn't apply then god can lift an object he can't lift......

    This can't happen ever.

    Logic isn't something that can't apply.
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    08 Oct '11 01:05
    Originally posted by RJHinds
    If it is possible for God to raise Himself from the dead, then it is also
    possibe He created Himself. All things are possible with God. But I
    don't ponder such things, for to me God is and that is awesome
    enough for me.
    Isa 43:10,11 says: 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

    This expalins his Godship. He is the first God and there will be none after him. He is God almighty and none other have that title and the power that comes with that.

    David knew this at Ps 90:2: "Before the mountains themselves were born,
    Or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land,
    Even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God."

    Rev 10:6 says: and by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it, he swore: “There will be no delay any longer"

    God CANNOT die. NO part of him can die.

    If you think a part of him can die and that he raised that part of himself from death, please provide the scriptures to prove that statement!!!!!!!!!!
  13. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 01:06
    Originally posted by sonhouse
    Why does it have to be a HE?
    It says so in the Holy Bible.
  14. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 01:09
    Originally posted by googlefudge
    See my bigger problem was a being to whom logic couldn't be applied.

    Rendering it impossible to say anything about him/her/it/god/s at all.

    This goes back to the omnipotence thing.

    If got is omnipotent, then god could create an object so heavy, not even god could lift it.
    But if god can't move it then got isn't omnipotent.

    If god can't creat ...[text shortened]... an't lift......

    This can't happen ever.

    Logic isn't something that can't apply.
    I don't recall the word "omnipotent" in the Holy Bible. Do you know where
    it is?
  15. Standard memberRJHinds
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    08 Oct '11 01:12
    Originally posted by galveston75
    Isa 43:10,11 says: 10 “YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”

    This ex ...[text shortened]... t part of himself from death, please provide the scriptures to prove that statement!!!!!!!!!!
    Why should I take the time to look it up? You have seen it before and
    just ignored it.
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