What do you owe God?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
And here you are, supposedly a grown man with nothing better to do but hang out at a spirituality forum reading posts by believers?
You are either very, very bored or maybe there is more to your curiosity to being here. Perhaps you are like the moth attracted to the flame?

Well, sunhouse is getting closer to that time when he must either make a decision to accept Christ as his savior or accept what chance he may have with evilution. Could that be the flame you are referring to?

The Instructor

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I'm glad you are all here, what would life be like without challenges?😉

and earlier you said (with typical Christian love)
but here you all are, atheists hanging out here. ...
You are the oldest 12 year old's {sic}I have ever seen.

Originally posted by RJHinds
Well, sunhouse is getting closer to that time when he must either make a decision to accept Christ as his savior or accept what chance he may have with evilution. Could that be the flame you are referring to?

The Instructor

Perhaps...but it is more discovering Jesus and then let Jesus show him personally....

Originally posted by wolfgang59
and earlier you said (with typical Christian love)
but here you all are, atheists hanging out here. ...
You are the oldest 12 year old's {sic}I have ever seen.

Ok, I admit I was shooting from the hip...

Originally posted by checkbaiter

If there were no rules then all of mankind would automatically be given that gift of eternal life :

I have to disagree here. All mankind is not automatically saved, man has to first believe from the heart and receive Jesus offer.

Now thats funny. You are agreeing with what I said and then you said you disagree. We both agree that all of mankind would not be given eternal life because there are requirements or conditions. We just disagree on what those conditions are.

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I am taking all the conditions stated by Christ and the Apostles. My Bible is more that just Romans 10:9.

Have you read Revelation chap 2 and 3 of Christ's judgment of the 7 churches. Whether you think they are literal churches or church ages or whatever, the judgment shows that there dire penalties for disobedience/willful sin by those who claim to accept Christ. Christ hates hypocritical mouth worship. While you may not be guilty of doing it, to go around telling others that its ok or that gives salvation, is a serious matter.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Now thats funny. You are agreeing with what I said and then you said you disagree. We both agree that all of mankind would not be given eternal life because there are requirements or conditions. We just disagree on what those conditions are.

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I a ...[text shortened]... doing it, to go around telling others that its ok or that gives salvation, is a serious matter.

"If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would commit robbery, rape and murder, you reveal yourself as an immoral person, and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you. If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good."
The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer

Originally posted by Pianoman1
"If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would commit robbery, rape and murder, you reveal yourself as an immoral person, and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you. If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good."
The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer

Is that a response to my post? I cannot see the connection.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Now thats funny. You are agreeing with what I said and then you said you disagree. We both agree that all of mankind would not be given eternal life because there are requirements or conditions. We just disagree on what those conditions are.

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I a ...[text shortened]... doing it, to go around telling others that its ok or that gives salvation, is a serious matter.

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I am taking all the conditions stated by Christ and the Apostles. My Bible is more that just Romans 10:9.

You seem to belittle Romans 10:9 and 10.
Let's look further....
Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
NKJV


Notice it says believe with your heart, this is not just saying Jesus is Lord, Jesus has been raised, etc. It says believe in your heart, not just mental assent as you claim. At least that is what I get from your words about "just say"...it is not "just say". It is believing from the heart, the seat of your personal life.

Have you read Revelation chap 2 and 3 of Christ's judgment of the 7 churches. Whether you think they are literal churches or church ages or whatever, the judgment shows that there dire penalties for disobedience/willful sin by those who claim to accept Christ.

These seven churches are AFTER this period of grace.
Yes, I believe in Dispensationalism. Notice what is said to these churches...

Rev 2:14
to eat things sacrificed to idols,
NKJV

Rev 2:20
and eat things sacrificed to idols.
NKJV

Rev 3:9
Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie — indeed
NKJV


There is a different tone here from the church epistles.
1 Cor 8:4-8

4 Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6 yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.

7 However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8 But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
NKJV

In other words, an idol is nothing in the sight of God, because we know there is one God and one Lord. It does not matter what we eat!

But even aside from this, as I said there is a different tone. What is missing here?
Heb 13:5-6
Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you." 6 So we may boldly say:

"The Lord is my helper;
I will not fear.
What can man do to me?"
NKJV

Phil 1:6-7
being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;
NKJV

Eph 1:13-14
In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
NKJV

These promises above are missing, don't you see the change?
I don't have extensive knowledge of Revelations, but I do know there is a change from this time of God's Grace. That is why people need to get themselves saved now, because it will be much different then.

Originally posted by Pianoman1
"If you agree that, in the absence of God, you would commit robbery, rape and murder, you reveal yourself as an immoral person, and we would be well advised to steer a wide course around you. If, on the other hand, you admit that you would continue to be a good person even when not under divine surveillance, you have fatally undermined your claim that God is necessary for us to be good."
The Science of Good and Evil by Michael Shermer

Actually this is the scenario that God shows in his word concerning the end times.
Without getting into a lot of scripture I will paraphrase if you will allow me.
In the book of Revelations Satan is bound for a thousand years.

During this one thousand year reign people still inhabit the earth. There is peace, there are unbelievers who live peaceably, have children, etc.
There is no demonic influence.
Then Satan is released from the pit and he quickly influences mankind again to hate, war, evil and then blatantly causes man to rebel against God.Then comes the war of Armageddon where Satan is finally cast into the Lake of Fire once and for all.

The point is, that as long as Satan has free reign here on earth, there will always be hate, murder, war racism, etc. There can be no peace until the Prince of Peace destroys him and he himself rules.
Rom 16:20
nd the God of peace will crush Satan under your feet shortly.
NKJV

He is called the God of peace and he cannot co-exist with the god of hate.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I am taking all the conditions stated by Christ and the Apostles. My Bible is more that just Romans 10:9.

You seem to belittle Romans 10:9 and 10.
Let's look further....
[b]Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near ...[text shortened]... ce. That is why people need to get themselves saved now, because it will be much different then.

Notice it says believe in your heart ??

This is my main point about preaching this once saved always saved doctrine. The preachers tell the congregation that they are saved. Do they have they authority to do that? Apparently you think they do. Apparently you think you do as well.

Do YOU Checkbaiter know what is in a man's heart?
Does the preacher?

The answer is NO. Only God knows.
Therefore only God knows who is and who is not saved and who gets eternal life.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

You seem to take the bare minimum or the easy road ie 'just say the word and you are saved' doctrine, while I am taking all the conditions stated by Christ and the Apostles. My Bible is more that just Romans 10:9.

You seem to belittle Romans 10:9 and 10.
Let's look further....
[b]Rom 10:8-13
8 But what does it say? "The word is near ...[text shortened]... ce. That is why people need to get themselves saved now, because it will be much different then.

I am not understanding what you are saying here about promises missing.

Originally posted by Rajk999
[b]Notice it says believe in your heart ??

This is my main point about preaching this once saved always saved doctrine. The preachers tell the congregation that they are saved. Do they have they authority to do that? Apparently you think they do. Apparently you think you do as well.

Do YOU Checkbaiter know what is in a man's heart?
Does the preac ...[text shortened]... Only God knows.
Therefore only God knows who is and who is not saved and who gets eternal life.[/b]

Okay, I agree so far...

Originally posted by Rajk999
I am not understanding what you are saying here about promises missing.

The promises like "I will never leave you nor forsake you", "you are sealed with holy spirit", the "work Christ began in you, Christ will finish", these are missing in the tone of the seven churches you speak of.
This is very difficult communication with a keyboard. It is much different than face to face, if you know what I mean...we may not even be that far apart.

But regardless of what a preacher thinks, or us for that matter, only God knows what is in the heart. I thought we assumed that these people had already believed in their heart and made Jesus Lord.
These people could not lose their salvation.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Okay, I agree so far...

I cannot believe you are saying that. Maybe you dont understand the implications of agreeing so far. I probably should recap what we said so far.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Okay, I agree so far...

So far we said:

1. Salvation /eternal life is a gift of God, given through grace and made possible by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

2. Although a gift Paul summarised the process of obtaining eternal life :
".. confess with thy mouth" and
".. believe in thine heart ... "

3. Those two are really conditions or requirements for the Christian to follow.

4. While it is easy for anyone to hear a Christian confess with their mouth it is only Christ and God that can know a man's heart and whether or not he really believes in his heart.

Is that what you agree with so far?