What do you think they are talking about?

Originally posted by josephw
Another thread lost to the obfuscators.

Another thread where you refuse to deal with the issues, chief of which is .. Is Roigam your father in law?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Another thread where you refuse to deal with the issues, chief of which is .. Is Roigam your father in law?

I am not my brother. Even the bible gets that, for a while. The issue is fear without knowledge, and the op shows that. The bible is just scribbles from the kids hiding in the fort behind the house.

Originally posted by KellyJay

Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

First Corinthians tells us some Christians will lose a reward, suffer loss, but be saved nonetheless, yet as through fire.

" If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.

If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire. " (1 Cor. 3:14,15)

KellyJay, concerning those who are to suffer loss, yet be saved, would you think of some of them might fit these characteristics ?

1.) had once been enlightened (Heb. 6:4)

2.) had once tasted of the heavenly gift ( Heb. 6:4)

3.) had once been partakers of the Holy Spirit ( Heb. 4:6)

4.) had once tasted of the good word of God (Heb. 4:5)

5.) had once tasted of the powers of the age to come (Heb. 4:5)

6.) had once in some serious sense "fallen away" (Heb. 4:5)

7.) possibly return to animal sacrifices so as to put the redemption of Jesus to shame (Heb. 4:5)

8.) openly disgracing the Gospel by apparently publicly trying to return to Judaism's animal sacrifices

I think that among those Christians, who before the examination of Christ for reward or discipline in the millennial kingdom, some would have had these unfortunate characteristics of being defeated in their Christian testimony.

I think "saved yet so as through fire" could include such believers as are warned about in Hebrews 6:4-6.

I am not writing this for the sake of Rajk999. So if you have comment or further question about this post, I'll check into it.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afres ...[text shortened]... sake of Rajk999. So if you have comment or further question about this post, I'll check into it.

I think all of us suffer loss, I think all of us have to go to God for forgiveness while we are
living in this world. What I believe is being covered by those verses shows someone who
isn't over coming sin, the world, or the devil through Jesus Christ instead walks away from
Him to do whatever they want apart from Christ, due to something they are putting before
God, greed, shame, lust, or such things.

We overcome in Christ, we will not apart from Him.

This wasn't written for any specific posters sake, though I'm sure some think everything
has something to do with them.

Originally posted by sonship
. sake of Rajk999. .

You are well aware that Rajk999 does not swallow BS.

Originally posted by KellyJay

I think all of us suffer loss, I think all of us have to go to God for forgiveness while we are living in this world.
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For certain we believers in Christ will suffer loss.
In this age before Christ's coming we will suffer loss. Some of us learn to suffer loss cheerfully, willingly, seeing the reward of greater riches in Christ.

Then some will suffer loss unwillingly with murmuring and complaining like the saved Israelites in the wilderness on their way to Canaan. Yes, all believers must suffer some loss with one attitude or the others. So true.

This "suffer loss" which Paul speaks of is a suffering loss AFTER the church age. The "suffer loss" which Paul specifically mentions is about loss suffered AFTER Jesus returns.

This "suffer loss" is pertaining to the loss of the reward of reigning with Christ in the millennial kingdom immediately following His return and the judgment seat of Christ.

As a result of them being examined by Christ (as all us believers in Christ WILL be examined) some will suffer loss yet still be saved. They must be forgiven as to eternal redemption, otherwise they could not be saved.

This is my agreeing with you yet trying to pin-point more carefully what is the suffering of loss specifically the Apostle Paul is speaking about.


What I believe is being covered by those verses shows someone who
isn't over coming sin, the world, or the devil through Jesus Christ instead walks away from
Him to do whatever they want apart from Christ, due to something they are putting before
God, greed, shame, lust, or such things.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree that this kind of being defeated pertains to both our verses of Hebrews 6:4-8 and those who before the judgement seat of Christ "suffer loss" but are saved yet so as through fire.

I think the case of Hebrews 6 was intended as warning to those Jewish brothers who were tempted to fall away and return to the animal sacrificing going on a the temple in the Judaism of that day. This was a very serious backsliding. Maybe it is hard for us today to grasp how awful a kind of falling away this was - to turn again from worship of Christ the Redeemer back to paying attention to offering bulls, goats, rams, etc. prescribed by the Old Testament law.

They had lain a new covenant foundation. But they were not being brought on in the development of divine life. Even for a Christian to see that he has received Christ as life that he may grow in that life is not to be taken for granted. I think even to see the need for growth of the divine life must be a revelation given by the Holy Spirit.


We overcome in Christ, we will not apart from Him.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

That is absolutely true.
One hundred "Amens" to that!

This wasn't written for any specific posters sake, though I'm sure some think everything
has something to do with them.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Understood.
Now let's look at the verses a little more.

We were looking at Hebrews 6:4-8.

This passage is not about initial salvation but about going ON to maturity. My ground for saying this is 6:1.

"Therefore LEAVING ... the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, etc. "

A foundation has been already lain. This passage is not about re-laying that foundation. It is about LEAVING the initial matters of Christian salvation and being brought ON to a more mature state of spiritual growth.

What is being left in order to progress ON to maturity ?" The word of the beginning of Christ" consists here of:

1.) repentance from dead works
2.) faith in God
3.) teaching of baptisms
4.) teaching of laying on of hands
5.) teaching of resurrection from the dead
6.) teaching on eternal judgment.

Here is the verses outlining what the writer calls "the word of the beginning of Christ"

"Therefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us be brought on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith in God, Of the teaching of baptisms and of the laying on of hands, of the resurrection of the dead and of eternal judgment." (vs.1,2)

It may seem that it should be EASY to do this. But the writer informs that this growing in understanding, in maturity, in life, and in function will only be "of God permits". Because we are so prone in our nature to be defeated in the Christian life, without His grace and mercy, who can grow?

"And this we will do if God permits." (v.3)

Next we might come to the most difficult part of the passage - "For it is impossible ..."

"And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened ... etc. etc." (vs. 3,4a)

Cont. below.

Now right off the bate it should be noted that IF GOD PERMITS should mean that with man something is impossible but not with God. If God permits there is possibility. If God does not permit it is impossible.

Am I right to understand this in this way KellyJay? Look again:

"And this we will do if God permits. (v3)
For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit and have tasted of the good word of God and the powers of the age to come ... etc. etc." (v.4a)

Now I think I would understand this to mean that the writer looks to God to PERMIT that the stuck Hebrew believers who are tempted to backslide to Judaism or whatever, to receive the writer's exhortation.

But if God is not merciful it is impossible for them to be brought on to maturity.
And happily the writer at the end of this warning section says that he and his co-workers are persuaded that better things will come out of the Christian lives of his audience. Right?

"But we are persuaded of better things concerning you, beloved, and things which belong to salvation, though we speak thus." (v.9)

The tone is:

"Yes we give you here some serious warnings. Yes we exhort to you hear about some very serious consequences for your backsliding. But we are persuaded that better things will occur to you. We are persuaded that God is willing to permit you to further grow, further be built up on the foundational things, further be brought on to maturity."

God does permit. And it is not impossible for them to be brought back from the brink of, let us say, actually leaving the new testament assembling together and returning to the animal sacrifices of the old covenant still being practiced at the Jewish temple.

That would have been a real disgrace to the church life. I am persuaded that this letter was written to Jewish disciples in Christ actually living in Jerusalem. Some of them were wavering and tempted to drop their new faith in Christ the Lamb of God and go back to offering the animal sacrifices of the temple.

They probably had seen some cases of this. And they knew that unless God had mercy and permitted, more would be tempted to leave the church and return to Judaism.

But in principle, the warning is suitable to Christians down through the ages who face different temptations, but amount to similar defeats of their faith.

The writer said that he and his fellow workers were persuaded of better things. Better things then WHAT?

Better things from the serious discipline of verse 6-8 for sure. Here are the things.

"And yet have fallen away, to renew themselves again unto repentance, crucifying again for themselves the Son of God and putting Him to open shame.

For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing from God.

But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end is to be burned.

BUT ... we are persuaded of better things concerning you ... " (6-9a)

1.) The earth is the believers.
2.) The fruit produced out of the earth is the works from the believers.
3.) Though the punishment speaks of burning, it is the bad vegetation that is the object of the burning not the ground.
4.) It does not say the ground is cursed. It does say that the ground is NEAR a curse.

This passage I would teach as speaking of the burning up of thorns and thistles of poor works issuing from underdeveloped Christian maturity. This will not be pleasant to the Christian. It will be as being saved yet so as through fire. The works are burnt up because they are of no use to God's eternal purpose to express Himself out from man for the building up of His church.

Look again at 7 and 8.

"For the earth, which drinks the rain which often comes upon it and produces vegetation suitable to those for whose sake also it is cultivated, partakes of blessing.

But if it brings forth thorns and thistles, it is disapproved and near a curse, whose end it to be burned." (vs. 7,8)

Disapproved works symbolized as thorns and thistles, will be burnt up. Compare to First Corinthians three:

"The work of each will become manifest; for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is.

If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward;

If anyone's work is consumed, He will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." ( 1 Cor. 3:13-15)

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put ...[text shortened]... now God fit this, or are there those
that did know God, and they walked away from Him fit this?

He 6:6 “and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles. This verse is not about losing salvation and not being able to regain it, although that is what many people think. If this verse were about losing one’s salvation, then we need to be clear about what it is saying, because it would be saying that if a saved person sins and loses his salvation, he cannot be forgiven and be saved again because that is “impossible.”

Could this one verse in Hebrews contradict all of the other verses in the Epistles that indicate the New Birth is permanent? A principle of interpretation is that the many clear verses on a subject outweigh what a contradictory verse seems to be saying. Also, can it really be true that the Bible says if a saved person sins and falls away from the faith it is “impossible” for him to get forgiveness and be saved again? Even in the Old Testament God implored the people of Israel to forsake evil and return to Him. Could it be that in the Old Testament a person could turn away from God but be accepted back with open arms if he would just ask God for forgiveness, but in the Christian Church if a person sins and falls away it is “impossible” for him to come back? That makes no sense.

A study of the Scripture shows us that people who sinned were welcomed back into the Christian community. For example, in 2 Corinthians 2:5-11 the Apostle Paul asked the Church to welcome back a person who had sinned. In Galatians 6:1 people who sin are to be “restored.” The Church Epistles are filled with exhortations for Christians to stop sinning and obey God. The invitation of God always is for people to stop sinning and come back to Him. That fact in itself tells us there is a different way to understand Hebrews 6:6 than believing it is saying a saved person cannot repent after sinning.

We also see God’s forgiveness and restoration daily in our churches. Our churches have many people who were strong in the faith at one time, then leave the faith for a while, then repent of their sin and return to church and the Christian lifestyle. Is there anyone who will say that all those people, who are now valuable members of the church, are actually not saved because it was “impossible” to renew them to the faith once they left the faith? We hope not.

If this verse does not mean that it is “impossible” for someone who left the faith to be forgiven and return to God, then what does it mean? It means that it is “impossible” to renew a sinner to repentance because once a Christian repents and gets saved that salvation is permanent. It is “impossible” for the Christian to lose his salvation, so it is “impossible” for him to repent and get saved again. Every Christian can and does sin, but the sin, even egregious sin, does not cause a person to lose his salvation. Since the person’s salvation was never lost, the person cannot “renew” himself to “repentance.” Everyone can only repent and be saved one time. After that, when we sin, we can repent of our sin and be forgiven, but we do not get saved again because we never lost our salvation. Salvation is by the New Birth, and it is permanent.

What happens when a Christian sins and asks for forgiveness is clear from 1 John 1:8, 9: “If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” These verses in 1 John assume that Christians will sin. In fact, 1 John 1:8 says that if we think we do not sin, we are deceiving ourselves. However, neither 1 John nor any other book of the New Testament has a warning such as, “Be careful! We all sin, but if you sin so horribly you fall away, you will not be able to be saved again.” No! Instead are the comforting words that if we confess our sin, God will cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Scholars who have studied this section of Scripture do not know why God addressed the permanence of our salvation by telling us it was impossible to be renewed to repentance. However, there are a couple possibilities we should consider. One is that there are many other places God plainly indicates that it is impossible to lose salvation. He calls it “birth,” and birth is permanent. He says our salvation is “guaranteed” (2 Cor. 1:22; 5:5; Eph. 1:14). Furthermore, He says we are already in heaven (Eph. 2:6). Saying it is impossible to renew our repentance would be just one more way that God would tell us that our salvation is permanent.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/

Originally posted by sonship
[b] I think all of us suffer loss, I think all of us have to go to God for forgiveness while we are living in this world.
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For certain we believers in Christ will suffer loss.
In this age before Christ's coming we will suffer loss. Some of us learn to ...[text shortened]... -------------------------------------
Understood.
Now let's look at the verses a little more.[/b]

Again, no one in Christ is going to be cast away. For me that is quite clear that those who
over come in Christ will suffer as we all do and will not fall away, they will not be cast
away, but the unbelieving the godless of the world will suffer loss. The warnings about sin
and turning away from the truth are all throughout the scriptures, the warnings about what
happen to those led out of Egypt, the warnings about those being cut off while we were
being grafted in are there for good reason. They were given too stop us of from allowing
our love to grow cold, and turning away from our Lord Jesus Christ. This doesn't mean
that in our struggle we will not suffer loss, but will be overcomers in Jesus Christ.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
He 6:6 “and then have fallen away it is impossible to renew them again to repentance.” This verse reflects the permanence of salvation that is spoken of in so many other places in the Epistles. This verse is not about losing salvation and not being able to regain it, although that is what many people think. If this verse were about losing one’s salvation ...[text shortened]... that God would tell us that our salvation is permanent.

http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/

I'm sorry we don't agree, I think this is no different than the one who sold his birthright for
a bowl of food, when he wanted to repent, it wasn't granted to him even though he
sought it will tears. I do believe the devil uses these verses to cast fear in us when we sin,
that we are accused of falling away and I reject that. This is a without a doubt walking
away from Christ not having a moment of weakness. It should cast upon us a mindset of
how important it is to draw near Christ, to obey Him, to forgive so we can be forgiven,
because God doesn't play with sin and He is attempting to free us from the devil in the
world that he runs at the moment until Jesus comes back putting all under His feet.

We don't have to worry about losing our salvation while walking with the Lord, loving God,
and loving each other. With that mindset it will never happen, but if we love the world, hold
hate in our hearts, lust the things, people, and all types of things like that, that is walking
on the edge being overcome by evil, not the mindset of anyone who claims to really follow
Jesus Christ. I believe it is also only true to those that actually walked with the Lord, those
who were playing church never were walking with God anyway, they just pretended and
were on their way to Hell without Jesus as they didn't know God, or have His Spirit, they
could still be saved in my opinion.

Again, talking about those that walk away from Christ not sinners in the midst of a
struggle over sin. A person who knew the Lord and out and out rejects Christ, is no
different than those led out of Egypt they were being led by God and rejected God. That
is not the same thing as Peter denying and repenting, or the one in the church who was
caught up in sin and they worked with him to turn him around. Sin is dangerous to be
overcome by it will cause death, that doesn't mean you lose out of God, but denying Him
and walking away, yes I do believe that does.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hebrews 6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put ...[text shortened]... now God fit this, or are there those
that did know God, and they walked away from Him fit this?

Those who who are represented by the rocky soil and soil infested with weeds.

Originally posted by checkbaiter

If this verse were about losing one’s salvation, then we need to be clear about what it is saying, because it would be saying that if a saved person sins and loses his salvation, he cannot be forgiven and be saved again because that is “impossible.”

This article of checkbaiter I find very helpful too.

I would say that we still need to be clear about the passage even if does not indicate loss of eternal redemption, though.


Very good checkbaiter.

Originally posted by Eladar
Those who who are represented by the rocky soil and soil infested with weeds.

Mark 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Jesus gave many warnings about turning back, or being unfruitful, they should be heeded.
That said, as we draw near to God, loving Him and each other that cares of this world,
and everything that in it draws us away from God are meaningless before God. Taking
His yoke upon us, following His Spirit, loving others, caring for each other's needs,
forgiving these are things not difficult once our hearts are right as we grow in grace.