What does God do for the Christian.

Originally posted by eagles54
This is the biggest burr under my saddle when it comes to attributing to God the power of intervention: He seems not to care to intervene when many people, guilty of nothing more than wrong place/wrong time, are destroyed by evildoers both directly and indirectly. What Insight does He have that permits Him to allow such a thing?

I've been around the block a couple of times and no one has ever made this Truth plain to me yet.

Yes, I understand that burr feeling. It is good to ask these questions. God calls us to 'taste and see...'. Can I try to answer this question? I can try.

The first point is that we are destroyed, not so much by 'evildoers' as we are by the very 'evil' itself. We were created 'good' (God saw that it was good), but we walked away, choosing to live oppositely, without God, rejecting Him. The word for that is...evil. We became the embodiment of evil and set about destroying, and trying to live in a world suddenly cursed, travailing under the burden of sin. This is enough to explain all that is wrong in the world.

Next, God did choose to intervene. And in the one and only, perfectly effective, way that He could! His Son was the only acceptable sacrifice worthy enough to actually pay the total debt we owed (the wages of sin IS death), but even that could not be forced upon us without violating his respect for our free wills; we are simply offered the great opportunity to be saved from our selves, and lovingly invited into His house.

What do you think Eags? Am I making any sense?

Originally posted by chinking58
Yes, I understand that burr feeling. It is good to ask these questions. God calls us to 'taste and see...'. Can I try to answer this question? I can try.

The first point is that we are destroyed, not so much by 'evildoers' as we are by the very 'evil' itself. We were created 'good' (God saw that it was good), but we walked away, choosing t ...[text shortened]... ves, and lovingly invited into His house.

What do you think Eags? Am I making any sense?

Thank you for your response, chinking.

When you say "we walked away..." do you mean that as in 'original sin'? If so, why should I be tarred with the same brush as the original sinners? If I am born in evil, it's seems to me that free will was removed by the original sinners. Ah yes, my free will is my ability to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior. It's like having a gun to one's head and saying I have a real choice in the matter. There is no choice as far as I can see. That means that free will is illusory if original sin is what condemns humans to an eternalistic state of complete suffering.

No disrespect intended, but I've heard the same countless times over the years. lol No, it doesn't make sense but thank you for the attempt.

Originally posted by eagles54
Thank you for your response, chinking.

When you say "we walked away..." do you mean that as in 'original sin'? If so, why should I be tarred with the same brush as the original sinners? If I am born in evil, it's seems to me that free will was removed by the original sinners. Ah yes, my free will is my ability to accept Christ as my Lord and Savior ...[text shortened]... me countless times over the years. lol No, it doesn't make sense but thank you for the attempt.

Hmmmm....
Why do we insist on painting ourselves in the corner opposite of God's?Even when He is reaching across the bridge of forgiveness built by His Son? He invites and we see it as a gun to the head. He says, "Either claim that your debt is paid in full or....don't; Either come into heaven with the invite Jesus sent you or...don't; Either open your arms to receive the gift or...don't." The choice we make to reject the offer is the only 'bullet' involved!

Ok, sermon is over; now to answer your points.
We are tarred with the same brush because we are. We are framed with the same kind of skeletons and circulatory systems as they were too because we are, but we don't find that too egregious. It's just the way it is. Denying the facts doesn't truly create a real objection; It only confuses the issue. Why not actually consider the possibility of 'original sin'?

The fact that you would choose not to accept the offer of salvation in Christ demonstrates two things: Free will, and the same rebellious nature of Adam (the presence here and now of the original sin). You can freely choose to reject God, just like Adam did, and you are seeming to do just that, just like Adam did!

Yes, our sin natures, inherited though they may be, do condemn us because we continue to exemplify that nature in our choices. The sin nature is not in control of us, but it is MANIFEST in us!

When you say there is no choice, aren't you really saying that you are frustrated with the fact that you can't choose to go to heaven without admitting your need for salvation? It's like refusing to take the offered parachute when the plane is going down, simply because you'd rather have a few more options. That would be called foolish, by any standard. I have an idea: Take the parachute and leap with it!

Using the free will dodge is like saying, "I am so mad at Donald Trump because I can't just walk into his palatial apartment any time I want, and without taking off my muddy boots!" Is God all wrong to have conditions on who can come into His Kingdom? And even at that, He invites ALL! "Whoever believes" is not a very stringent condition. Who wants to go somewhere anyway, if they don't even believe in the place?

Your holding a gun to the head analogy breaks down pretty easily;
I might hold a gun and say 'your money or your life' and if you choose to keep your money, you sacrifice your life (then, I would take your money anyway! Why didn't Jack Benny think of that?) But God holds an invitation out to us and says, "Receive this, or don't" He knows, and we tend to deny, that if we don't receive the invite (on His wonderful terms) then there is only one other place to go: out of His presence. (The essence of hell)

If we accepted Christ, and lived out our lives as His servants, died at a ripe old age looking forward to a home in heaven, and then discovered that Christ never did rise from the dead and there is no way into heaven after all, THEN we could say that free will is illusory!

I Corinthinans 15: 12-20 12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead

Ok, so I admit, the sermon wasn't really over....sorry about that!
I love God so much, and have found Him to be so good, that I long to share my good news with you!

Chinking, the original sinners removed my free choice of being able to obey God fully without sin in the first place, according to you. You said we are tarred with the same brush. We just 'are.' Makes no sense to me why God would want to condemn every person ever born for the major league screw-up of the very few.

But now God gives me the deal of being able to be saved through Christ by taking his offer? It sounds like a great deal but why is the deal necessary? It just is?

I'm sorry to be so difficult but I'm sincere in my questioning. I have no doubt I'm rebellious, arrogant, rotten in many respects. That God would make my very nature so abhorrant because of original sin flies in the face of what a loving God would want, which is each person being given a chance to make choices unmarked by others' ignorance.

It's funny really; I've never had a problem with God, just the way I'm told me He operates, as if it were truly known. Ah yes, my rebellious nature that turns away.

No, I don't turn away from God. I believe original sin is not inherent.

Originally posted by eagles54
Chinking, the original sinners removed my free choice of being able to obey God fully without sin in the first place, according to you. You said we are tarred with the same brush. We just 'are.' Makes no sense to me why God would want to condemn every person ever born for the major league screw-up of the very few.

Let's face it putting a couple of nice apple trees in the middle of a garden and then telling two children not to eat the apples and then punishing them for it - before they know the difference between good and evil, Genesis is quite specific about this - has to count as entrapment. Maybe we can appeal?

Originally posted by telerion
hey blind, what denomination are you? I've never encountered some one who capitalized all the letters of God related words with so stubbornly.

Ironically, the verse you quoted did not capitalize all the letters of Lord or God.

Good to see you are looking at the God's Word there telerion. If it will help keep you looking I will continue with such errors.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Let's face it putting a couple of nice apple trees in the middle of a garden and then telling two children not to eat the apples and then punishing them for it - before they know the difference between good and evil, Genesis is quite specific about this - has to count as entrapment. Maybe we can appeal?

The first thing you have to do is see God clearly and not through a distored view which has been presented to you by various means.

When the original sin in the garden happened, dominion of the earth was given over to Satan. God does not use circumstance and does not punish people. It is quite the opposite, the "lie" that He does continues from the garden forward to the end of the bible...you know where the Maps are.

From the time the "two children " walked out of the garden, the Lord has been protecting mankind. It is only when our unrelenting free will ask, no demands to see what is on the other side of wall of grace that we encounter the perils and hurts of this world.

If you read carefully you will find the "punishment" only occured after God lifted the protection that was holding it at bay. The Lord does not test us, good grief, He knows has backwards and forwards. Test come from Satan, he wants to figure out where the weakness is and use it against us. From the time Adam surrendered dominion to him, he has tried to destroy mankind. It matters not if it is through events in the climate, circumstance or pure disobediance, he will use all of those to destroy us.

Point blank, God does not kill babies, send hurricanes, tornadoes, does not test us and any of the other crazy things which are said about Him. They are all various forms of the "lie" which is: God does not love us. Satan has been spreading it for a very long time.

Originally posted by Una
The first thing you have to do is see God clearly and not through a distored view which has been presented to you by various means.

How is this accomplished?

Originally posted by eagles54
Chinking, the original sinners removed my free choice of being able to obey God fully without sin in the first place, according to you. You said we are tarred with the same brush. We just 'are.' Makes no sense to me why God would want to condemn every person ever born for the major league screw-up of the very few.

But now God gives me the deal o ...[text shortened]... ure that turns away.

No, I don't turn away from God. I believe original sin is not inherent.

...and at the same time He offers to redeem the ALL under the single major league sacrifice of the ONE! It does seem to balance out. (Noone has ever complained that God can apply one Savior to billions of souls!)

You talked about '...why God would want to condemn...'. But God does not want to condemn at all! 'God is not willing that any should perish!' 'God finds no pleasure in punishing'
But He set up a system that should be compounding interest in our favor. If Adam and Eve had made the proper choice, telling the serpent where to go, we would have received a proper inheritance!

You are not being difficult at all. I recognize and appreciate your sincerity.

You know, if our (my) nature wasn't so obviously in the same vein as A & E's, I would certainly complain to God for being under their same sentence. But..it just is. And I think I hear you saying that yours is too. So the fact is that our choices are marked by the choices of others. That idea doesn't seem too unfamiliar in the real world does it? I have kids, neighbors, co-workers, bosses, senators and terrorists who make influential choices every day!

I especially appreciate your last line Eags. How we think about original sin does not have to be a doctrine to die for, as it were. It matters only to the degree that it may divert someone from trusting God. Some people, it seems, are determined to find such a reason, and go over the cliff of reason in their attempts.

Originally posted by DeepThought
Let's face it putting a couple of nice apple trees in the middle of a garden and then telling two children not to eat the apples and then punishing them for it - before they know the difference between good and evil, Genesis is quite specific about this - has to count as entrapment. Maybe we can appeal?

Children? Those two represent the pinnacle of creation! (Needless to say, Eve was created last, and I think we will all agree that woman is the very pinnacle of God's creative work) A & E had everything they needed to make the right decision. They were ultra smart, ultra fit; they walked with God in the garden every day for crying out loud!
They knew the difference between obeying God and disobeying God. What they didn't know, what God wanted to protect them from, was KNOWING the difference between good and evil. Like the difference between when a teenage boy knows what sex is and when he KNOWS his wife. Except that in the garden, the 'knowing' was the bad thing. Anyway..............I've said enough!

What does God do for the Christian?

Kills them.

If you don't believe me, ask me for the names of some dear friends of mine that were taken from this world before their time.

Originally posted by saffa73
What does God do for the Christian?

Kills them.

If you don't believe me, ask me for the names of some dear friends of mine that were taken from this world before their time.

Tell us about your friends, won't you?

Originally posted by eagles54
Chinking, the original sinners removed my free choice of being able to obey God fully without sin in the first place, according to you. You said we are tarred with the same brush. We just 'are.' Makes no sense to me why God would want to condemn every person ever born for the major league screw-up of the very few.

But now God gives me the deal o ...[text shortened]... ure that turns away.

No, I don't turn away from God. I believe original sin is not inherent.

28 Romans 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)


Since by one man sinned intered the world and we are all held short of glory, so by one man we are counted righteous. If you think about it, this is the most just way. Since God measured all of mankind's rebellion by one man, so He also counted all of mankind's obedience by one man.

With the coming of the Lord and His death on the cross, we can now turn to Him for salvation and righteousness. I think that is pretty dang cool myself!

Originally posted by chinking58
You know, if our (my) nature wasn't so obviously in the same vein as A & E's, I would certainly complain to God for being under their same sentence. But..it just is. And I think I hear you saying that yours is too. So the fact is that our choices are marked by the choices of others. That idea doesn't seem too unfamiliar in the real world does it? ...[text shortened]... , neighbors, co-workers, bosses, senators and terrorists who make influential choices every day!

Yeah, I'll be the first to admit I'm a real piece of work. 😉

However, I have never seen evidence that my very nature is evil.

To the contrary, through the practice of meditation, I can begin to understand the reasons behind my own so-called evil behavior directly and without fail. We all act so d@mn badly because we believe the self to be an existent, unchanging entity. If we saw directly our minds' unblemished nature, we would not cause grief to ourselves and others because of ego-clinging. We would know without a doubt that to hurt 'other' means injuring 'self.'

Our acts of ignorance keep repeating themselves because we re-enforce them with every waking and sleeping moment because of our gross ignorance of our own minds' nature, not because of inherent evil born in us. When that veil is lifted through the experience of prajna (direct insight into the nature of phenomena), then the causes of wrongdoing are seen for what they are: no more real than a dream.

Of course it's a very difficult task, to look inward and trust that maybe one's nature is not evil as we've been led to believe, but rather confused from beginningless time because of the love of 'self.'

Originally posted by chinking58
Tell us about your friends, won't you?

2 close friends killed in terrible car accidents.