What does Jesus want from us?

Originally posted by Rajk999
First of all, if I have to make a mistake with my personal belief I will make it erring on the side of accepting the teachings of Christ over the teachings of Paul/Apostles rather than the other way around. However I can see no conflict between the two. The core message of Christ and that of the Apostles is the same by my interpretation.

Basically the ...[text shortened]... ee that then you focus on what you think is important, and let me do what I think is important .

The events in a persons life I don't have an issue with; however, where did you get
this sequence of "THEN that person..." from? Please note I'm not saying these things
don't happen, but you have them in a very specific order, where does this order come
from? Might they come in a different order, or maybe the order of things you talk about
don't really have to have in the sequence you brought up, they only have to happen.

Where did you get this sequence from?

Originally posted by KellyJay
The events in a persons life I don't have an issue with; however, where did you get
this sequence of "THEN that person..." from? Please note I'm not saying these things
don't happen, but you have them in a very specific order, where does this order come
from? Might they come in a different order, or maybe the order of things you talk about
don't really ...[text shortened]... the sequence you brought up, they only have to happen.

Where did you get this sequence from?

I really cant believe that you have to ask where I got that from. Its in the Bible and I quoted the references dozens of times. Try reading your Bible.

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If you dont know what the IF conditional statement means then go take a basic English grammar class.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I really cant believe that you have to ask where I got that from. Its in the Bible and I quoted the references dozens of times. Try reading your Bible.

[i]Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see dea ...[text shortened]... ou dont know what the IF conditional statement means then go take a basic English grammar class.

It is the order that you put those things in play!

I agreed with you that if you do those things, the results you talked about happen, but
you are making much more about the order of things. We agree on if you keep His
commandments, continue in His Word, keeps His sayings, Love Him, abide in Him
what happens. Not disputing those things, but I am disputing that you are suggesting
we are not right with God and have God in our lives to make those things happen.

I told you that we require God in our lives in order to follow God's Spirit, you said that
was wrong due to when getting right with God happens. I'd also point out to you that
you are even wrong about that as well. We become right with God He gives us His
Spirit and we start to follow, obey, and have a relationship. The salvation is in Him not
in my efforts, we will do His works only as we obey Him, because we are not saved by
our works least we be able to boast about that. Works will be done in Him as we obey
Him.

If we are following God's Spirit, if God's Spirit is in us leading, teaching us, and all that He
does for us what needed. What more is there for our relationship with God to improve?
We are all ready given the Spirit of God so we can call Him Father?

After judgment day our lives do go forward into eternity, but when we are God's at that
moment we found with Him.

"However we will continue to disagree simply because you are putting eternal life FIRST. I put eternal life as the last thing that happens. "

"However we will continue to disagree simply because you are putting eternal life FIRST. I put eternal life as the last thing that happens. "
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Some verses place it last and some verses place it first.

This stands to reason because man is a trichotomous being - spirit and soul and body.

So the life which God imparts does spread out into all of man's three parts.
So some New Testament passages refer to the consummation of eternal life and some refer to the inception of eternal life.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I really cant believe that you have to ask where I got that from. Its in the Bible and I quoted the references dozens of times. Try reading your Bible.

[i]Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see dea ...[text shortened]... ou dont know what the IF conditional statement means then go take a basic English grammar class.

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

If you dont know what the IF conditional statement means then go take a basic English grammar class.

It is not disputed by me for a moment that these are conditional statements.
They are not "IF" conditional statements, however, that make eternal redemption insecure.

If is not disputed that these are conditional statements.
They are not conditional statements meaning eternal redemption is conditioned on man's work.

They are conditonal statements but nearly all of them say nothing about losing the gift of eternal life based upon some failure of the Christian.

I will go through each one in this thread - time permitting.

Originally posted by Rajk999

1.)

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I suggest that the whole section of Matthew 19:16-26 be read, To shorten the explanation:

Jesus asked the young man to do something he surely was UNABLE to do.
Though he wanted to keep the commandments to obtain eternal life he was unable to.

He finally goes away SORROWFUL realizing that he cannot make it.
The only man that can make it is Jesus Himself because He is perfect.

When the disciples realize the difficulty of what Jesus is commanding they reply with despair, and rightfully so.

"And when the disciples heard this they were greatly astonished and said, Who then can be saved ?" (v.25)

Here is the point of the teaching. No one can keep the commandments so as to earn eternal life. "WHO ?? ... can be saved ??" the disciples conclude, and quite appropriately.

The next thing that happens gives the answer.

"And looking upon them, Jesus said them, With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (v.26)

Thus ends the section from verse 16 through. Eternal life earned by our works ?
It is IMPOSSIBLE .
It is impossible for that rich young man.
It is impossible for the disciples.
It is impossible for each of us apart from God's grace.

With man, every fallen man born of Adam IT IS IMPOSSIBLE. But by means of Christ's full salvation it is possible. He looked upon them intently probably knowing within Himself the act of redemption and salvation He was going to soon accomplish.

"And looking upon them, Jesus said to them, With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (v.26)

On THIS SIDE of the redemptive death and resurrection and indwelling of Jesus Christ in forgiven sinners. IT IS POSSIBLE. We can be saved through the full salvation of Jesus the Son of God. Praise the Lord !

Let's go on to the next verse.

Rajk999's second conditional verse:

2.)

John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;

I think there is little problem with this verse INDEED simply means truly and not superficially.

It comes short of saying, if you continue in My word then are you my disciples ... period. It says if you continue in my word you will be my disciples indeed.

Of course we as Christians should seek to be His disciples indeed, truly and not superficially. Nothing in this verse means one can earn by his works the gift of eternal life.

Next verse then.

3.)

John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.

If by this Jesus meant that anyone being a follower of Jesus will never grow old and actually expire then not even Peter, John or James or Paul or any early disciples was saved.

If never see death was meant by Jesus to mean the obedient disciples are still on the earth today after 2,000 plus years, then face it, NO disciples of Jesus exist.

Never see death must not mean that then.
And I will not say more about it now.

But if this is Rajk999's proof text that we earn eternal life through obedience to commands of Jesus then not one person in history has succeeded in 20 centuries.

Of course it would make sense if Jesus means resurrection and eternal life to all who trust in Him. It makes sense if to receive Jesus is to receive the eternal life and either resurrection or rapture/transfiguration awaits all the believers in Christ.

And even if that IS the proper understanding it does not tie God's hands from instituting discipline to those Christians who need it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It is the order that you put those things in play!

I agreed with you that if you do those things, the results you talked about happen, but
you are making much more about the order of things. We agree on if you keep His
commandments, continue in His Word, keeps His sayings, Love Him, abide in Him
what happens. Not disputing those things, but I am dispu ...[text shortened]... because you are putting eternal life FIRST. I put eternal life as the last thing that happens. "

I think you are missing the point that Christ is making. Your beliefs are not in line with the teachings of Jesus. I dont know what further to say.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with y ...[text shortened]... n some failure of the Christian.

I will go through each one in this thread - time permitting.

Good Luck with trying to twist the teachings of Christ.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think you are missing the point that Christ is making. Your beliefs are not in line with the teachings of Jesus. I dont know what further to say.

Hardly and you simply falling back to being dismissive isn't addressing my points either. Not unexpected however!

Originally posted by KellyJay
Hardly and you simply falling back to being dismissive isn't addressing my points either. Not unexpected however!

You are basically saying that it is only IF you accept Christ it is THEN that you can do good works and it is only THEN you have Gods Spirit.

Im not going to argue with you, I quoted passage from Jesus teachings that says the opposite.

If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are basically saying that it is only IF you accept Christ it is THEN that you can do good works and it is only THEN you have Gods Spirit.

Im not going to argue with you, I quoted passage from Jesus teachings that says the opposite.

If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.

Stop putting words in my mouth quote me, so you can show me my error in what I have said, not what you think!

Originally posted by sonship
1.)

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I suggest that the whole section of [b]Matthew 19:16-26 be read, To shorten the explanation:

Jesus asked the young man to do something he surely was UNABLE to do.
Though he wanted to keep the commandments to obtain eternal life he was unable to.

He fina ...[text shortened]... the full salvation of Jesus the Son of God. Praise the Lord !

Let's go on to the next verse.[/b]

It just occurred to me how utterly well these two portions of the New Testament go together and compliment each other Matthew 19:19-26 and John 14:1-3.

The rich young ruler realized that he could not rise to meet the demand to sell all his riches and follow Jesus. And the disciples said astonishingly "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked intently on them and said that it is impossible with men, but with God all things are possible.

How well this corresponds to His discourse just before He goes to the cross in John 14.

"Do not let your heart be troubled; believe into God, believe also into Me.

In My Father's house are many abodes; if it were not so I would have told you; for I go and prepare a place for you,

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John 14:1-3)

Jesus is eternal life and Jesus goes to the cross to prepare a place for men that they may be where He is. With men it is impossible. But with God all things are possible.

If He were the only one who could be the dwelling place of God, He would have told us that there could be no other abodes in the Father's house but Himself. But in the Father's house there are "many abodes" thanks to Jesus going to Calvary to prepare a way for forgiven sinners to be the abodes of the Triune God (John 14:23).

Surely we should put these two portions of the New Testament together. "Who then can be saved?" All men who believe into God as they believe into Jesus can be saved. He goes to prepare a place for all those to come into God and God into them for the building up of the house of God.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You are basically saying that it is only IF you accept Christ it is THEN that you can do good works and it is only THEN you have Gods Spirit.

Im not going to argue with you, I quoted passage from Jesus teachings that says the opposite.

If you cannot see that then I cannot help you.

In your opinion or how you read scripture, when does one become right with God is it in
this life time or only the next?