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Spirituality

Spirituality

  1. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    16 May '18 05:21
    Do we go straight to heaven or hell?

    Here’s an interesting answer from a website I generally trust.

    Agree or disagree with it?

    Question: "What happens after death?"

    Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final judgment, after which everyone will be sent to heaven or hell. Others believe that at the moment of death, people are instantly judged and sent to their eternal destinations. Still others claim that when people die, their souls/spirits are sent to a “temporary” heaven or hell, to await the final resurrection, the final judgment, and then the finality of their eternal destination. So, what exactly does the Bible say happens after death?

    First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven, because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36). For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).

    Second, for those who do not receive Jesus Christ as Savior, death means everlasting punishment. However, similar to the destiny of believers, unbelievers also seem to be sent immediately to a temporary holding place, to await their final resurrection, judgment, and eternal destiny. Luke 16:22-23 describes a rich man being tormented immediately after death. Revelation 20:11-15 describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at the great white throne, and then being cast into the lake of fire. Unbelievers, then, are not sent to hell (the lake of fire) immediately after death, but rather are in a temporary realm of judgment and condemnation. However, even though unbelievers are not instantly sent to the lake of fire, their immediate fate after death is not a pleasant one. The rich man cried out, “I am in agony in this fire” (Luke 16:24).

    Therefore, after death, a person resides in a “temporary” heaven or hell. After this temporary realm, at the final resurrection, a person’s eternal destiny will not change. The precise “location” of that eternal destiny is what changes. Believers will ultimately be granted entrance into the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21:1). Unbelievers will ultimately be sent to the lake of fire (Revelation 20:11-15). These are the final, eternal destinations of all people—based entirely on whether or not they had trusted Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html
  2. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    16 May '18 07:14
    A good companion Q+A...

    Question: "Where do you go when you die?"

    Answer: The Bible is absolutely clear that, ultimately, there are only two options for where you go when you die: heaven or hell. The Bible also makes it abundantly clear that you can determine where you go when you die. How? Read on.

    First, the problem. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23). We have all done things that are wrong, evil, or immoral (Ecclesiastes 7:20). Our sin separates us from God, and, if left unresolved, our sin will result in us being eternally separated from God (Matthew 25:46; Romans 6:23a). This eternal separation from God is hell, described in the Bible as an eternal lake of fire (Revelation 20:14–15).

    Now, the solution. God became a human being in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1, 14; 8:58; 10:30). He lived a sinless life (1 Peter 3:22; 1 John 3:5) and willingly sacrificed His life on our behalf (1 Corinthians 15:3; 1 Peter 1:18–19). His death paid the penalty for our sins (2 Corinthians 5:21). God now offers us salvation and forgiveness as a gift (Romans 6:23b) that we must receive by faith (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8–9). “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Trust in Jesus alone as your Savior, relying on His sacrifice alone as the payment for your sins, and, according to the Word of God, you are promised eternal life in heaven.

    Where do you go when you die? It is up to you. God offers you the choice. God invites you to come to Him. It is your call.

    If you feel God drawing you to faith in Christ (John 6:44), come to the Savior. If God is lifting the veil and removing your spiritual blindness (2 Corinthians 4:4), look to the Savior. If you are experiencing a spark of life in what has always been dead (Ephesians 2:1), come to life through the Savior.

    Where do you go when you die? Heaven or hell. Through Jesus Christ, hell is avoidable. Receive Jesus Christ as your Savior, and heaven will be your eternal destination. Make any other decision, and eternal separation from God in hell will be the result (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).

    If you now understand the two possibilities of where do you go when you die, and you want to trust Jesus Christ as your personal Savior, make sure you understand and believe the following, and as an act of faith, communicate the following to God: “God, I know that I am a sinner, and I know that because of my sin I deserve to be eternally separated from you. Even though I do not deserve it, thank you for loving me and providing the sacrifice for my sins through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and I trust in Him alone to save me. From this point forward, help me to live my life for you instead of for sin. Help me to live the rest of my life in gratitude for the wonderful salvation you have provided. Thank you, Jesus, for saving me!”

    https://www.gotquestions.org/where-do-you-go-when-you-die.html
  3. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    16 May '18 14:27 / 7 edits
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    I would not recommend this article too easily.
    And here are a few reasons why.

    First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven,


    I don't find that in the New Testament.
    I do see the immaterial part of man (soul and spirit) resting in a pleasant place. It is not conclusive that it is heaven.

    In fact the next verses from Second Corinthians would indicate otherwise. God does not want souls to be "unclothed" before Him in heaven. This is an abnormal state for a human being.

    To be without the body is to be found naked. And God does not want the unclothed and naked soul to dwell in heaven.

    Also, this teaching gives people the impression that He is the God of the DEAD rather than the God of the living. Ie. You have to go into death in order to fully meet God.

    This makes God more a God of the realm of DEATH.
    He is a God of resurrection more so, IMO.


    because their sins are forgiven by having received Christ as Savior (John 3:16, 18, 36).


    But nothing in those verses say where the departed soul / spirit of man resides upon physical death. I'm sorry but neither verse 16 nor 18 nor 36 talk about WHERE the departed soul is located upon physical death.

    We should be careful.


    For believers, death is to be “away from the body and at home with the Lord” (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23).


    "Therefore being always of good courage and knowing that while we are at home in the body, we are abroad from the Lord. (v6)


    This has to be taken relatively because in another sense Christ the Lord is WITH all the believers while they are physically alive too.

    "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim 4:22)

    " And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20)


    " ... do you not realize this about yourselves that Jesus Christ is in you, ...? (2 Cor. 13:5)


    So to be "at home with the Lord" (in physical death) in Second Corinthians must be relative. It should be MORE at home with the Lord but not at one's final destination for eternity.

    The apostles did not want to be found "naked". They could not be really "at home with the Lord" in an ultimate eternal sense as long as they were unclothed with their resurrected and glorified new bodies.

    "For also in this we groan, longing to be CLOTHED UPON with our dwelling place from heaven. If indeed, being clothed, we will not be found NAKED. " (2 Cor. 5:2,3)


    To be naked in heaven is not normal.
    To be unclothed with the glorified body is abnormal.
    The apostles did not want it so. And assuredly their God did not want it so.

    BUT to be AWAY from the body is to be AT HOME with the Lord - relatively more so then to be away from Him while physically alive on earth.

    The final "at home" is that their whole being be "swallowed up" in the divine and resurrection life - totally.
    Then they are really and finally "at home".

    "For also, we who are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened, in that we do not desire to be UNCLOTHED, but CLOTHED upon, that which is mortal may be SWALLOWED UP by [divine] life." (v.4)


    So where would they be "at home with the Lord" but not in heaven? In Paradise another place - where Jesus and the dying thief went together in their soul / spirit.

    "And He said to him, truly I say to you, Today you shall be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43)


    Jesus did not die and go to heaven.
    He died and went three days to the heart of the earth.
    " For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights." (Matt. 12:40)


    Paradise must be in the heart of the earth.
    For it was there that Christ and the believing thief went on that day - "Today you shall be with Me in Paradise."

    The heart of the earth is to where the departed believers go to be in Paradise. They do not go to be unclothed and naked souls without resurrection bodies - in heaven.

    But relatively so, they are more "at home with the Lord" in Paradise.

    Ephesians 4:9 also says that when Jesus died He went to "the lower parts of the earth."

    (Now this, "He ascended," what is it except that He also descended into the lower parts of the earth."


    This Paradise is also the place of the faith holding followers of Abraham. it is also called "Abraham's bosom".
    This is the pleasant part of Hades (Luke 16:23 ).

    I think the article takes some of this into account, about the resurrected and glorified body.

    However, passages such as 1 Corinthians 15:50-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what is the purpose of this resurrection? It seems that while the souls/spirits of believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, the physical body remains in the grave “sleeping.” At the resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and then reunited with the soul/spirit. This reunited and glorified body-soul-spirit will be the possession of believers for eternity in the new heavens and new earth (Revelation 21-22).


    But the unclothed body is in Paradise, in the heart of the earth, in Abraham's bosom, and not in heaven.

    Examine closely, consider, and your reply is welcomed.
  4. 16 May '18 19:53
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Do we go straight to heaven or hell?

    Here’s an interesting answer from a website I generally trust.

    Agree or disagree with it?

    Question: "What happens after death?"

    Answer: Within the Christian faith, there is a significant amount of confusion regarding what happens after death. Some hold that after death, everyone “sleeps” until the final ju ...[text shortened]... or salvation (Matthew 25:46; John 3:36).

    https://www.gotquestions.org/what-happens-death.html
    Well first one needs to know the bible's meaning of hell. The word "hell" in the bible simply means the grave.

    Some Bible translations use the word “hell” for the Hebrew word “Sheol” and the matching Greek word “Hades,” both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27)

    Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel pain. “There is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol.”—Ecclesiastes 9:10.

    Good people go to hell? The faithful men Jacob and Job expected to go there.—Genesis 37:35; Job 14:13.

    Death, not torment in a fiery hell, is the penalty for sin. “He who has died has been acquitted from his sin.”—Romans 6:7.

    Eternal torment would violate God’s justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4) When the first man, Adam, sinned, God told him that his punishment would simply be to pass out of existence: “Dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Genesis 3:19) God would have been lying if he were actually sending Adam to a fiery hell.

    God does not even contemplate eternal torment. The idea that he would punish people in hell fire is contrary to the Bible’s teaching that “God is love.”—1 John 4:8; Jeremiah 7:31.

    The modern thought of a literal burning hell actually has a Greek origin and is not a bible teaching.

    As far as going to heaven, the first fact is no one who died on the earth went to heaven before Jesus. Jesus was the first to be resurrected to open they way for some to later follow. And then only a small amount, or 144,000. This is the "little flock" Jesus spoke of and hand picked the initial ones who after death would eventually be resurrected to heaven to rule with Jesus for a thousand years. All other humans would remain in the grave until the earthly resurrection starts after Armageddon.
  5. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    16 May '18 20:38
    You turn to dust, including your brain, and it is not known that things think and feel without a brain. Or you can run with made-up stuff (see above).

    I think there may be an afterlife but stone-age myths are not the path.
  6. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    16 May '18 20:47
    Originally posted by @apathist
    You turn to dust, including your brain, and it is not known that things think and feel without a brain. Or you can run with made-up stuff (see above).

    I think there may be an afterlife but stone-age myths are not the path.
    Have you investigated the evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection?

    You’re aware the Stone Age ended thousands of years before Christianity?
  7. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    16 May '18 20:49
    Originally posted by @galveston75
    Well first one needs to know the bible's meaning of hell. The word "hell" in the bible simply means the grave.

    Some Bible translations use the word “hell” for the Hebrew word “Sheol” and the matching Greek word “Hades,” both of which refer to the common grave of mankind. (Psalm 16:10; Acts 2:27)

    Those in hell are unconscious and so cannot feel p ...[text shortened]... l other humans would remain in the grave until the earthly resurrection starts after Armageddon.
    You think all the references to hell in the New Testament are compatible with the grave? What is the “lake of fire” in your view?
  8. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    16 May '18 20:50
    Originally posted by @sonship
    I would not recommend this article too easily.
    And here are a few reasons why.

    First, for the believer in Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death believers’ souls/spirits are taken to heaven,


    I don't find that in the New Testament.
    I do see the immaterial part of man (soul and spirit) resting in a pleasant place. It is n ...[text shortened]... n Abraham's bosom, and not in heaven.

    Examine closely, consider, and your reply is welcomed.
    Thanks for your post. Will need time to properly consider.
  9. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    16 May '18 22:28 / 5 edits
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Thanks for your post. Will need time to properly consider.
    Well, I will tell you. I considered WHERE in the Bible can I find it unambiguously stating that people are in Heaven?

    The last time I had this exercise it was only in Revelation where I find it stated unambiguously (to my sense) that people are in heaven. And these instances are after the resurrection and rapture of saints.

    AND ... they don't stay there. They come down with Christ to possess the earth for His kingdom.

    It seems very much that heaven is not intended to be the eternal home of the saved. Now if one wants to kind of loosely say - all that pertains to the new heaven and new earth with the New Jerusalem is in some way ... "heaven" ... then I at least understand and can go along with that a little reluctantly.
  10. 17 May '18 02:17
    First question, could a real lake of fire exist? If so what would be it's purpose? Is it to make a sinful human who would still have to be alive and burn forever and suffer forever? What does the bible say about those who sin and what the payment for sin is?
    As a comment that I posted earlier does God torture sinful humans forever? No he doesn't. Death is the payment for sinning not being tortured forever.
    So what does this lake of Fire represent if it is not a real place? What else does the bible say is thrown into it? Check this out to see: https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/questions/lake-of-fire/#?insight[search_id]=bebcec38-dec8-496d-ab0c-24e75fcfb25f&insight[search_result_index]=0
    Sorry for the past but it is worth checking out and it has many scriptures to help understand what this is...
  11. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    17 May '18 08:20 / 3 edits
    I will offer SOME response to your article.

    The Bible’s answer
    The lake of fire is a symbol of eternal destruction. It is the same as Gehenna, but it is different from hell, which is the common grave of mankind.


    I agree that the city dump of Gehenna was used by Christ to teach about eternal punishment. I agree that a lake of fire is also used.

    But this could mean that MORE is involved in a lake of fire. The lake of fire will be there PLUS more of a supernatural element is involved.

    Prophecy is often like this. We are told something which is like the tip of the iceberg. When the final prophecy is fulfilled, MORE is involved then what we were told. This does not mean that what we were told is untrue literally. It only means that we were not told of everything involved.

    I have to give room for a lava flow of fire and brimestone will be literal, YET God is not LIMITED to those details.


    Not a literal lake
    The five Bible verses that mention “the lake of fire” show it to be a symbol rather than a literal lake. (Revelation 19:20; 20:10, 14, 15; 21:8) The following are cast into the lake of fire:

    The Devil. (Revelation 20:10) As a spirit creature, the Devil cannot be harmed by literal fire.—Exodus 3:2; Judges 13:20.


    It is true that with difficulty an angel put into a fire and brimstone lake seems ineffective. But for a man - antichrist, and a false prophet - to go there we can grasp.

    That Satan is ALSO punished, we can grasp. Details on exactly how may not be known now or could be fully known now. He goes in his angelic being to the same place.

    In communicating this to human beings a literal burning lake could just be that tip of the iceberg reality that we can comprehend. It is that plus something else of a more supernatural aspect, of torment for an angelic spirit.

    Revelation 20:10 says that "THEY - [the three of them - two humans and one angelic being will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

    This means that the two humans have not been annhilated into non-existence. Otherwise "THEY" could not suffer forever.

    "And the devil, who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were, and THEY will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Rev. 20:10)


    1.) If the two humans were annihilated then they could not suffer forever.

    2.) If the devil is too spiritual to suffer, then they (with him) could not suffer forever.

    Denying 1.) is makes verse 10 a lie.
    Denying 2.) is also makes verse 10 a lie.

    So we don't understand everything. And full details of this lake of fire we may not know.

    We do know what God tells us:

    "And the devil ... was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were,

    and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."


    Some desire to change the Bible there to say "and they will NOT be tormented day and night forever and ever." But we are told they WILL be.


    Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.


    It could be that what John saw was the rider DEATH which he saw symbolically in chapter 7 be thrown into the lake of fire.

    "And when He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, Come,

    And I saw and behold, a pale horse, and he who sits upon it, his name is Death, and Hades followed him. And authority was given to them over the fourth part of the earth to kill with the sword and with famine and with death and by the beasts of the earth." (Rev. 7:78)


    In his vision perhaps John saw these two - Death a rider and Hades (either a horse or a rider on a horse) went into the lake of fire.

    This is not enough to prove then that there will be no literal lake of fire as John prophesies.


    “The wild beast” and “the false prophet.” (Revelation 19:20) Since these are symbols, doesn’t it seem reasonable to conclude that the lake they are thrown into is also a symbol?—Revelation 13:11, 12; 16:13.


    But John tells us that the symbols are of men.
    So for the men to be cast into the lake of fire it could be conveyed to John by seeing their symbols go there.

    Either way, the Bible says "they will be tormented day and night forever and ever" and the article wants to change this to mean "they will NOT be tormented day and night forever and ever."

    What does Revelation warn about taking adding words to or taking words away from its prophecy?

    "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll. If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this scroll. (v.18)

    And if anyone takes away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and out of the holy city, which are written in this scroll." (v.10)


    In interpreting what is written in the book we have to be careful not to ADD or TAKE AWAY from what is written. So I intend to leave it as it is in the scroll in Revelation 20:10.

    " And the devil who deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet were;

    and they will will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (20:10)



    eternal destruction
    The Bible says that the lake of fire “means the second death.” (Revelation 20:14; 21:8)


    What the writer is not telling you yet, as far as I can see, is that Revelation 2:11 speaks of "the HURT of the second death."

    "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall by no means be HURT of the second death." (Rev. 2:11)


    If non-existence is involved there could not possibly be a "hurt" of the second death. Someone who does not exist cannot be in any "hurt".

    These are just some replies from me.
  12. Subscriber sonship
    the corrected one.
    17 May '18 14:29 / 2 edits

    Death. (Revelation 20:14) This is not a literal entity but represents a state of inactivity, the absence of life. (Ecclesiastes 9:10) Death cannot literally be burned.


    The book of Ecclesiastes is written from the pragmatic standpoint of people living on earth "under the sun". That is typical human life in this natural realm.

    It is ASKED as a QUESTION - Who knows where one goes at death. It is not stated but ASKED.

    "Who knows the breath [or spirit] of the children of men, that it goes upward; or the breath [or spirit] of the beasts, that it goes downward to the earth," (Ecc. 3:21)


    Experiencially - WHO KNOWS?
    Of us who are living on earth under the sun - WHO KNOWS?

    He is saying that apart from God's revelation, men on earth have no experiential knowledge of what happens following death.

    Now consider 9:10.

    "Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might; for there is no work or thought or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol, where you are going." (Ecc. 9:10)


    No one has come back to inform us of what is going on in Sheol. Apart from God's revelation of this NO ONE has experiential knowledge.

    Therefore, as far as what we DO have knowledge of "under the sun" we should make our lives count, for after death where will be any of our work or thought or knowledge or wisdom? We have no idea. Who really knows by experience? No one alive.

    This is how Ecclesiastes should be taken - pragmatism concerning what we do know about physical life.
  13. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    18 May '18 05:29 / 2 edits
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    Have you investigated the evidence for Jesus Christ’s Resurrection?
    There is none. Fairy tales don't count.

    You’re aware the Stone Age ended thousands of years before Christianity?

    Sure. I get artistic license when just trying to interrupt the non-stop vomit that bible-thumpers spew.
  14. Standard member Romans1009
    tiger loves PB&J
    18 May '18 05:41
    Originally posted by @apathist
    There is none. Fairy tales don't count.

    You’re aware the Stone Age ended thousands of years before Christianity?

    Sure. I get artistic license when just trying to interrupt the non-stop vomit that bible-thumpers spew.
    So you haven’t investigated the evidence and you’ve arrived at a conclusion?

    Artistic license? Is that how you spell “mistake” now?
  15. Standard member apathist
    looking for loot
    18 May '18 12:41
    Originally posted by @romans1009
    So you haven’t investigated the evidence and you’ve arrived at a conclusion?

    Artistic license? Is that how you spell “mistake” now?
    You know about loaded questions, right.

    You got nothing. Your Jesus is absent. I'd expect a god to show up.