what is "faith"?

Originally posted by black beetle
You quoted:
"faith is complete confidence in someone or something expressed in a non-meritorious way."

And right then I asked you:
-- So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Furthermore, the person that should "wax eloquent a bit" is you. It 's not me but you the one who believes that the "not truly born by God" persons are invaded by the spirit of the Antichrist.

Let's stick to one subject at a time, shall we?

I want to answer your question, and I will do so as eloquently as possible, but I'm simply not sure what you're getting at.

The gist of your question may be obvious to you, but it isn't to me. Please explain further so I can understand where you're coming from exactly.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Let's stick to one subject at a time, shall we?

I want to answer your question, and I will do so as eloquently as possible, but I'm simply not sure what you're getting at.

The gist of your question may be obvious to you, but it isn't to me. Please explain further so I can understand where you're coming from exactly.

OK epi, here you are: I have the impression that the cornerstone of the Christian religion is the concept that every human being is born sinful and that therefore the Human needs "to be saved". So I was surprised when you said that "faith is complete confidence in someone or something expressed in a non-meritorious way". And then I asked:
-- So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Originally posted by black beetle
OK epi, here you are: I have the impression that the cornerstone of the Christian religion is the concept that every human being is born sinful and that therefore the Human needs "to be saved". So I was surprised when you said that "faith is complete confidence in someone or something expressed in a non-meritorious way". And then I asked:
-- So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Oh, I wrote again "non- meritous" instead of "non-meritorious". Please excuse me for the wrong spelling.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not sure what you are saying. Can you expand it a bit?

If you are simply admitting that the documentary evidence for Jesus' existence is flawed then I have no objections, and commend you on your honesty.

I find the "documentary evidence" that Jesus did not exist to be seriously flawed. There are plenty of reliable sources that convince me that He did/does indeed exist.

Originally posted by PinkFloyd
I find the "documentary evidence" that Jesus did not exist to be seriously flawed. There are plenty of reliable sources that convince me that He did/does indeed exist.

Ah. Now I understand you. What documentary evidence do you have that Jesus did not exist, and can you tell me what the flaws are?

And what relevance did your comment have to the post of mine that you were replying to? Is the fact that you find the documentary evidence flawed a good reason for concocting your own counter evidence and lying about it? Or did you mean something else?

Originally posted by black beetle
OK epi, here you are: I have the impression that the cornerstone of the Christian religion is the concept that every human being is born sinful and that therefore the Human needs "to be saved". So I was surprised when you said that "faith is complete confidence in someone or something expressed in a non-meritorious way". And then I asked:
-- So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Thanks.

A person may get baptized, or profess belief publicly, but these acts are not what saves a person. I've professed belief publicly and have been baptized, but I did so out of obedience to the Lord, not in order to be saved. What saves a person is faith, a complete confidence in the victory Christ achieved on the cross (which is to say, complete confidence in Christ Himself) as a propitiation for a sinful life. If I were to express my "faith" in a meritorious way, I would not be expressing faith at all, but unbelief. It is only unbelief which says that I must earn God's grace. Therefore, faith (the kind of faith which saves) can only be expressed in a non-meritorious way.

I hope that answers your question.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Thanks.

A person may get baptized, or profess belief publicly, but these acts are not what saves a person. I've professed belief publicly and have been baptized, but I did so out of obedience to the Lord, not in order to be saved. What s) can only be expressed in a non-meritorious way.

I hope that answers your question.[/b]

I guess James was clueless when he said that faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead. Maybe there should have been an Epiphinehas epistle, explaining 'non-meritorious faith'.

You can always tell false doctrines. The proponents have to make up new words in order to explain their new found 'truth' and it helps to fool the weak minded into believing that they are truly inspired!!

Words like triune, non-meritorious . ... cant remember them all ... Jawywill use them a lot. I will make a list...

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]So when somebody acts the way he acts in order to "be saved", he acts not in a "non-meritous way"?

Thanks.

A person may get baptized, or profess belief publicly, but these acts are not what saves a person. I've professed belief publicly and have been baptized, but I did so out of obedience to the Lord, not in order to be saved. What ...[text shortened]... s) can only be expressed in a non-meritorious way.

I hope that answers your question.[/b]

It does, although it appears that every Christian has a different view regarding the issue of "faith" and the core beliefs of Christianity.

Thank you for your reply.-

Originally posted by Rajk999
I guess James was clueless when he said that faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead. Maybe there should have been an Epiphinehas epistle, explaining [b]'non-meritorious faith'.

You can always tell false doctrines. The proponents have to make up new words in order to explain their new found 'truth' and it helps to fool the weak minded into believing that they ar ...[text shortened]... meritorious . ... cant remember them all ... Jawywill use them a lot. I will make a list...[/b]

How's it goin', Raj? Busy earnin' your ticket to heaven are ya?

Good luck.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I guess James was clueless when he said that faith WITHOUT WORKS is dead. Maybe there should have been an Epiphinehas epistle, explaining [b]'non-meritorious faith'.

You can always tell false doctrines. The proponents have to make up new words in order to explain their new found 'truth' and it helps to fool the weak minded into believing that they ar ...[text shortened]... meritorious . ... cant remember them all ... Jawywill use them a lot. I will make a list...[/b]

New words and new vocabulary is often an indication of a new culture. And a new culture is indicative of a new way of LIVING.

Some of the Christian brothers, because they are in the experience and living of God rather than merely teaching about God, enter into a new culture.

This new culture necessitates new expressions sometimes and new words.

New words are not necessarily and indication of false teaching. They can be an indication of people entering into a new culture, a new way of living which calls for fresh new ways of expressing their experience.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
How's it goin', Raj? Busy earnin' your ticket to heaven are ya?

Good luck.

Just trying to follow what Christ said. Cant seem to get the strength to follow the teachings and interpretations of man. Im weak !
Basically Christ said to shutup, get your lazy butt out there and DO.
WIth all your love and humility I hope you are DOING as well, otherwise its all in vain.

Originally posted by jaywill
New words and new vocabulary is often an indication of a [b]new culture. And a new culture is indicative of a new way of LIVING.

Some of the Christian brothers, because they are in the experience and living of God rather than merely teaching about God, enter into a new culture.

This new culture necessitates new expressions sometimes and n ...[text shortened]... new culture, a new way of living which calls for fresh new ways of expressing their experience.[/b]

One interesting example of your new culture is a certain televangalist (cant remember the name) is now preaching that works is wrong. Works, he says, means that you are trying to do Gods work for Him and that insulting to God. If you see a poor man, a hungry man, a needy man, homeless people, you should not interfere. God has them there for a reason. And he used some new words I never heard before to describe his new theology. His language was so eloquent and his presentation so fluid and smoothe, I understand why the gullible give these jokers their money and some even their life savings.

Thats the result of your new culture. I know that man is probably your hero as well.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Just trying to follow what Christ said. Cant seem to get the strength to follow the teachings and interpretations of man. Im weak !
Basically Christ said to shutup, get your lazy butt out there and DO.
WIth all your love and humility I hope you are DOING as well, otherwise its all in vain.

If I have faith in Jesus Christ, how can I not do?

You still haven't sold me on this idea that a person can somehow have faith and not have works.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
If I have faith in Jesus Christ, how can I not do?

You still haven't sold me on this idea that a person can somehow have faith and not have works.

There is faith. There is a declaration of faith. The only thing you know is that a person has made a declaration of faith. Unless you can see inside a persons heart you cannot know if a person has faith. Only Christ can. You can certainly know if YOU have faith because you know you own heart as Christ does.

Are you saying that all Christians who declare their faith and are baptised, that their faith is real and they also have works? You cannot.

Works is the proof that your faith is real and not simply words.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There is faith. There is a declaration of faith. The only thing you know is that a person has made a declaration of faith. Unless you can see inside a persons heart you cannot know if a person has faith. Only Christ can. You can certainly know if YOU have faith because you know you own heart as Christ does.

Are you saying that all Christians who declare ...[text shortened]... also have works? You cannot.

Works is the proof that your faith is real and not simply words.

I agree wholeheartedly that good works are proof that your faith is real and not simply words.

What's your point?

I've only ever referred to the genuine kind of faith when speaking of faith. That is, the kind of faith which produces fruit and good works. The kind of faith which saves a person. If I ever refer to the false, "dead" kind of faith, I will make sure to elucidate the distinction.

Good works are the evidence of a genuine, saving faith. I don't even pretend that I know my own heart as well as Christ does. I am more than capable of deluding myself into thinking that I have a genuine faith. Anybody can. I test myself and look at my own life: am I producing fruit? Am I living a life full of good and commendable works? If not, then I know my heart is not right.

But I never make the mistake of thinking that it is my good works that will save me. If you're right with God in your heart, then His power and guidance will produce good works in your life. The key is not aiming at good works, but at a healthy faith.

If someone says they have faith, but no works, then their faith is dead. Does that mean they need to run out and do good things? No, their faith needs to be revived first, or their works will be empty.

Comprende?