What is paradise supposed to be?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
Yes but would not eternal peace be synonomous with "heaven"?

Surely time and space and the second law of thermodynamics do not apply in higher dimensions.

As per Hindu philosophy, Time,Space & the 2nd/any other law of Themodynamics are in the domain of this Universe which is "expressed" version of the Godhead. Eternal Peace results when the individual soul merges with the Brahman/Godhead that being the "unexpressed " version. After the merger,where is the individual Soul ?

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
More to the point will be the fact that all Organised Religions have spoken about Heaven and Hell ! Hindu Religious creed is that all the people who have earned Merit on balance by doing Good Deeds go to heaven and enjoy the company of Gods,enjoy all sorts of pleasures and so on as rewards. Bad people who have done Bad Deeds on balance go to hell where t ...[text shortened]... cles of Life and Death.
We are told that we must escape this cyclic journey by yielding to God.

In continuation of my earlier post,I want to make two additional points.
i) Belief in Supernatural Punishment meaning roughly in the conception of Hell is a religious practice that is" adaptive" in the words of evolutionists ! They now say that the adaptive value of the belief in Supernatural Punishment arises because this belief increases cooperation among the group members as well as it decreases costs of incurring real world punishment for non-observance of the religious norms !! So now the Evolutionists are hypothesizing that the Belief in Hell could be good for us( possibly likewise Belief in Heaven)
ii) Jesse Bering, a research scholar of high standing says in his book "The God Instinct---" that the belief in God has helped in conferring powerful evolutionary benefits on Mankind !! He says that God is not a cultural invention nor a existential band-aid but an intrinsic human trait developed over thousands of years carrying powerful evolutionary benefits. He says God is not a delusion but a sophisticated cognitive illusion.The evolutionists seem to be coming nearer !

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
In continuation of my earlier post,I want to make two additional points.
i) Belief in Supernatural Punishment meaning roughly in the conception of Hell is a religious practice that is" adaptive" in the words of evolutionists ! They now say that the adaptive value of the belief in Supernatural Punishment arises because this belief increases cooperation am ...[text shortened]... delusion but a sophisticated cognitive illusion.The evolutionists seem to be coming nearer !

There is a potential trap for evolutionists (those who a fans of evolution.) The trap is, "Let's find a way that this can be explained by evolution, after all, we know evolution can explain this." The evolutionist is so deeply committed to evolution that he imagines that any biological feature, behavior, belief, social institution, etc. can only have come about because it confers adaptive benefit to those who adopt it.

The problem is that evolution becomes unfalsifiable as a theory (See Karl Popper on this.) It becomes a truth to be applied, not a theory to be confirmed by investigation of falsifiable hypotheses.

When this happens WITHIN a science, the theory becomes a paradigm, a la Thomas Kuhn, and the paradigm is no longer being tested, but instead is accepted as an interpretative framework for future work. There is a point at which this is legitimate, or at least, is understandable. But this degree of commitment can happen in the "fan base" earlier and with more conviction, and can be applied more broadly, than is justified by the scientific work.

So, some fans of evolution are ready to assume that evolution can explain belief in paradise and god, because these beliefs must have had adaptive benefit sufficient to establish themselves in human society. But this is putting the cart before the horse. Instead, we should wait for the scientists to catch up, with peer-reviewed publications that test falsifiable hypotheses, that confirm that belief in paradise and god do have adaptive value. If there are already such publications, they should be cited. After all, belief without evidence can be called faith.

And it should be remembered that the establishment of a sound evolutionary explanation for belief in paradise and god, will do nothing to prove that paradise and god do, or do not, in fact, exist. I think that is one of your implied points.

Originally posted by JS357
There is a potential trap for evolutionists (those who a fans of evolution.) The trap is, "Let's find a way that this can be explained by evolution, after all, we know evolution can explain this." The evolutionist is so deeply committed to evolution that he imagines that any biological feature, behavior, belief, social institution, etc. can only have come abou paradise and god do, or do not, in fact, exist. I think that is one of your implied points.

The clarity of this post is extraordinary, for indeed, it is the pure folly of the materialist who strives to apply his theory to every governance of life and which leads him to reduce everything to the basest material value, thus emotions are mere electro chemical impulses, religion must be traceable to a religiosity gene, conscience is the product of social interaction etc etc

Originally posted by JS357
There is a potential trap for evolutionists (those who a fans of evolution.) The trap is, "Let's find a way that this can be explained by evolution, after all, we know evolution can explain this." The evolutionist is so deeply committed to evolution that he imagines that any biological feature, behavior, belief, social institution, etc. can only have come abou ...[text shortened]... paradise and god do, or do not, in fact, exist. I think that is one of your implied points.

I do not believe in Paradise or Hell. But I am a believer in the cause and effect relationship between our actions and their outcomes. I also believe that we have to face good or bad outcomes of our good or bad actions here itself in our life. A Newtonian theory of Morals if you want it to be put that way.But my Hindu Religious Creed says that the effects of good deeds will be to one's credit side and bad deeds will be to one's debit side and one gets to reap the harvest depending on one's net merit or demerit, in heaven or hell. One is born again after consuming the the harvest. I deeply believe in God and hence was amused to read that Evolutionists now do not dismiss the Belief in God as a Delusion.The term that they now use for God is that it is a cognitive illusion. Why avowed atheists start wondering about the existence of God on facing a personal tragedy etc. is now explained by the evolutionists as an adaptive belief !!! I bet that many atheists must be reading daily horoscope readings if not openly but surreptitiously.Human mind is weak and cannot be kept alive on Logic alone. The very fact that Belief in God is considered a biological adaptation makes me think that the evolutionists have moved closer to God.

Originally posted by JS357
There is a potential trap for evolutionists (those who a fans of evolution.) The trap is, "Let's find a way that this can be explained by evolution, after all, we know evolution can explain this." The evolutionist is so deeply committed to evolution that he imagines that any biological feature, behavior, belief, social institution, etc. can only have come abou ...[text shortened]... paradise and god do, or do not, in fact, exist. I think that is one of your implied points.

Regarding your point that the latest stance of the evolutionists does not prove existence of God, I refer you to Slate magazine's issue of Feb 1,2011, wherein Jesse Bering says that one can never rule out the possibility that God micro-engineered the evolution of our brains so that we can see him more clearly!!! Even if for the sake of argument,when one evolutionist starts saying these sort of things, the walls that Science has built around itself seem a bit shakier than before.
But I may state here that the existence of God is an axiomatic belief in Vedant which it says is to be EXPERIENCED,NOT NECESSARILY TO BE PROVED.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
I do not believe in Paradise or Hell. But I am a believer in the cause and effect relationship between our actions and their outcomes. I also believe that we have to face good or bad outcomes of our good or bad actions here itself in our life. A Newtonian theory of Morals if you want it to be put that way.But my Hindu Religious Creed says that the effect ...[text shortened]... dered a biological adaptation makes me think that the evolutionists have moved closer to God.

Thanks to both respondents. My reaction to what you say, may go outside the topic, but I have done a little digging into "cognitive illusion" and have this to say. A cognitive illusion is a belief based on faulty interpretation or faulty mental processing of information. Interestingly, what might escape some people's thinking, is that the content of the illusion may be, in fact, not illusory. Looking into the correspondence theory of 'truth" in my philosophy book, there is an example. Seeing a magic act, one might think there is an elephant on a podium on the stage, when unknowingly looking at a mirror on the podium, that is arranged to present the image of an elephant that is not on the podium. And yet, behind that mirror, there may be an elephant on the podium. In this case, the conclusion is due to faulty cognition (intentionally set up by the magician), and so it is a cognitive illusion, but it so happens that the conclusion matches a truth. So it may be a mistake -- a cognitive illusion? -- to conclude that a cognitive illusion always concerns an untruth.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Regarding your point that the latest stance of the evolutionists does not prove existence of God, I refer you to Slate magazine's issue of Feb 1,2011, wherein Jesse Bering says that one can never rule out the possibility that God micro-engineered the evolution of our brains so that we can see him more clearly!!! Even if for the sake of argument,when one e ...[text shortened]... an axiomatic belief in Vedant which it says is to be EXPERIENCED,NOT NECESSARILY TO BE PROVED.

I agree with all you say here, especially the primacy of experience over belief. Except I don't believe science has built walls requiring entrants to make a metaphysical commitment to atheism, that is, to a belief that there is no supernatural being. Some people on both sides of the situation paint science that way, but the exercise of science demands only a methodological commitment to naturalistic explanations WHEN doing science, and, I repeat, that is a commitment to a methodology, not to underlying metaphysical belief. There are many theists doing science. I am confident that some of them follow the same path you do.

Originally posted by JS357
I agree with all you say here, especially the primacy of experience over belief. Except I don't believe science has built walls requiring entrants to make a metaphysical commitment to atheism, that is, to a belief that there is no supernatural being. Some people on both sides of the situation paint science that way, but the exercise of science demands only a ...[text shortened]... e are many theists doing science. I am confident that some of them follow the same path you do.

Thanks for this and the earlier post.Will be back soon reg.Illusions and delusions !!!

Originally posted by JS357
Thanks to both respondents. My reaction to what you say, may go outside the topic, but I have done a little digging into "cognitive illusion" and have this to say. A cognitive illusion is a belief based on faulty interpretation or faulty mental processing of information. Interestingly, what might escape some people's thinking, is that the content of the illusi ...[text shortened]... a cognitive illusion? -- to conclude that a cognitive illusion always concerns an untruth.

We Hindus believe that this Universe comprising of objects having names and appearances i.e. " Naam-Rupatmak Vishwa"--Naam being the Sanskrit word for Name and Rupa meaning appearance, Vishwa meaning Universe--- is the "expressed" version of the Universal Reality/God/Truth, whatever may you call it. But this expressed version is very dynamic, ever-changing yet we take it as steady and constant. This is our basic delusion i.e. to believe in an ever changing flux of perishable and changeable objects as the Reality. This ever changing flux is called Maya. Maya means delusion. Behind this "Mayic" universe or Magical universe, lies the Reality of God /Truth which is called the "unexpressed" universe. Our duty as Humans interested in Liberation/Enlightenment is to pierce through this Mayic curtain and directly experience God.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
We Hindus believe that this Universe comprising of objects having names and appearances i.e. " Naam-Rupatmak Vishwa"--Naam being the Sanskrit word for Name and Rupa meaning appearance, Vishwa meaning Universe--- is the "expressed" version of the Universal Reality/God/Truth, whatever may you call it. But this expressed version is very dynamic, ever-changin ...[text shortened]... ation/Enlightenment is to pierce through this Mayic curtain and directly experience God.

Quote:

"Our duty as Humans interested in Liberation/Enlightenment is to pierce through this Mayic curtain and directly experience God."

It is interesting to me that you use the word "duty." I'm not disputing it, just saying that it is a different slant than I have come to think is intended. My previous readings have led me to look on it as a friendly challenge, a game of hide and seek. Maybe it is just that I prefer that interpretation.

Originally posted by JS357
Quote:

"Our duty as Humans interested in Liberation/Enlightenment is to pierce through this Mayic curtain and directly experience God."

It is interesting to me that you use the word "duty." I'm not disputing it, just saying that it is a different slant than I have come to think is intended. My previous readings have led me to look on it as a friendly challenge, a game of hide and seek. Maybe it is just that I prefer that interpretation.

Yes,the word "duty" is often used by Hindu Saints,Philosophers,Theologicians to describe the human attempt to realize God. They say that we are born as humans after undergoing many births in other forms like animals/plants and so on. They say what is the use of acquiring a great body and mind--unequalled among the living beings-- of a human if you do not take up this duty viz.to realize God and escape the cycle of death and birth. They say that God realization is our most important duty.

Originally posted by rvsakhadeo
Yes,the word "duty" is often used by Hindu Saints,Philosophers,Theologicians to describe the human attempt to realize God. They say that we are born as humans after undergoing many births in other forms like animals/plants and so on. They say what is the use of acquiring a great body and mind--unequalled among the living beings-- of a human if you do not ...[text shortened]... escape the cycle of death and birth. They say that God realization is our most important duty.

OK they say all that. But the saying of it by others, I hope you agree, is not compelling in itself.

Originally posted by JS357
peer-reviewed publications that test falsifiable hypotheses, that confirm that belief in paradise and god do have adaptive value. If there are already such publications, they should be cited.

http://evolution-of-religion.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/sosis-2004-american-scientist.pdf

Originally posted by JS357
OK they say all that. But the saying of it by others, I hope you agree, is not compelling in itself.

Of course,there is no compulsion by Hindu theology on any Hindu to take up this duty of realizing God. It is an exhortation and not a compulsion.
Not many religions are there as is Hindu Religion that are so tolerant of people voicing dissent or people disinterested in the practice of duties prescribed for each Station in life or people simply disbelieving in God.
In the list of "Darshan"s i.e.the list of recognized schools of Philosophy in our religion, that of Charvak is also included.The Philosophy of Charvak was that this body is the only one we are ever likely to have and hence enjoy your food,your drink and sex,don't bother about anything else.