06 Dec 08
Luke 10:21
"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individuals that are acknowledgedly intelligent and informed about issues concerning human behaviour that the Bible references.
Rather than listing those behaviours here, and judging the right or wrong of such behaviours, my inquiry is about whether or not the ability to make correct judgements about what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwIf I had nothing better to do and made up my own religion, I think I might put in a paragraph or two about how doubters should not be trusted.
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwHave you considered that maybe Jesus was just simply very fond of children and babies?
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by rwingettIts' already been done.
If I had nothing better to do and made up my own religion, I think I might put in a paragraph or two about how doubters should not be trusted.
Revelation 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Revelation 3:16
So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Of course this is a loose interpretation.
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwI wonder if you are thinking that wisdom and prudence are the same as intelligence. I doubt that they are.
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwWhether one is talking about textual (scriptural) revelation or some personal revelation (visions, epiphanies, etc.), one must apply one’s own intelligence to determine whether the revelatory content is really intelligible and intelligent (makes sense). Also to determine whether such revelation (again, however manifest) can, in fact, be called revelation. There is just no escape from that.
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
Neither the force nor the particular content of any putative revelation (or revelatory experience) can be determining: or else no one would ever be confused by a mirage.
And this: whenever anyone grants authority to some revelation (or revelatory experience, or any chain of revelations seeming to confirm other revelations), they do so ultimately on their own authority to make that decision, by whatever means they arrive at that decision. Again, there is just no escape from that. It is simply impossible to abrogate one’s own authority to assess and interpret and decide; it would be self-deceptive to think that one can.
I don’t know what Jesus is talking about here. But he apparently is not talking to pre-reasoning children (how would they understand what he was saying?); nor would they be reading this text and asking informed questions about it. Perhaps “babes” is a metaphor; perhaps you need to take it like a Zen koan and search out what it might mean for you in your life—without necessarily contending that it must mean “just this” or “just that”.
06 Dec 08
Originally posted by vistesdI don't want to put words in jJosephw's mouth, but I think he might say that our intelligence gets in the way of our understanding revelations.
Whether one is talking about textual (scriptural) revelation or some personal revelation (visions, epiphanies, etc.), one must apply one’s own intelligence to determine whether the revelatory content is really intelligible and intelligent (makes sense). Also to determine whether such revelation (again, however manifest) can, in fact, be called revelation. ...[text shortened]... or you in your life—without necessarily contending that it must mean “just this” or “just that”.
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07 Dec 08
This prayer of Jesus comes after a monologue given by Jesus to the Seventy, in which he instructs and motivates them to a new way of ministering to others. When they come back successful, he cautions them lest they become to heady about their newly found discipleship.
The prayer is nothing more than an acknowledgment to God of a method that is obviously successful for Jesus in establishing disciples: That if he chooses raw recruits then it is easier to mold them to his radical new idea of thinking and practicing religion. They are unencumbered by the philosophies and dogma of their time and religious practice and therefore are more receptive to fully embrace and practice his radical form of ministry.
07 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwYour post reminds me of Proverbs 3:5 "Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding......and be not wise in your own eyes...."
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
07 Dec 08
2 edits
Originally posted by BadwaterI think there is some truth in what you say here. In fact, I think the key term here is humility that God is looking for. The Bible is full of such examples such as Moses. Moses was said to be the meekest man who ever lived. Here you had a stuttering meek man being used by God to retrieve his people from the strongest nation on earth. He was hardly the Charlton Heston figure we see in the Hollywood version of Moses. In fact, he insisted that his brother Aaron go with him and speak for him when confronting the Pharoh . I think perhaps seeking such humble spirits serves two purposes. Firstly, to be humble in spirit means that you are not head strong and do not insist on things your way as much as someone who has a reason to harbor pride for various characteristics, accomplishments, wealth etc. Secondly, it shows the world the power of God. After all, it is much more impressive to use "nobodies" rather than "somebodies" to accomplish things for God. It tends to deflect the glory away from those used by God towards the power that is behind such men.
This prayer of Jesus comes after a monologue given by Jesus to the Seventy, in which he instructs and motivates them to a new way of ministering to others. When they come back successful, he cautions them lest they become to heady about their newly found discipleship.
The prayer is nothing more than an acknowledgment to God of a method that is obviously ...[text shortened]... ice and therefore are more receptive to fully embrace and practice his radical form of ministry.
Having said all that, it is also obvious that people of high intelligence are not necessarily excluded from God's service based upon the assumption that they will be prideful of such ability. An example I think would be Paul. He was obviously an articulate and highly educated individual who was able to serve God humbly despite his intellectual abilities.
07 Dec 08
Originally posted by josephwIf one is "wise and prudent", isn't he already basically in the business of making more or less correct judgments?
Luke 10:21
[b]"In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight."
Here is why I ask. There is a good deal of discussion in this forum by certian individ ...[text shortened]... ut what is right or wrong, good or evil, is contingent on revelation rather than intelligence.[/b]
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07 Dec 08
Originally posted by whodeyHaving Aaron speak for him was a necessary task given his speech impediment; it's kind of difficult to impress the Pharoh with a severe stutter. Aaron also spoke for Moses to the Jews for the same reason.
... Moses was said to be the meekest man who ever lived. Here you had a stuttering meek man being used by God to retrieve his people from the strongest nation on earth. He was hardly the Charlton Heston figure we see in the Hollywood version of Moses. In fact, he insisted that his brother Aaron go with him and speak for him when confronting the Pharoh ...